3 ms·

Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to ma

by ada1981 9y ago

Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing. Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored.

Fnoord 9y ago
> Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Wow, that's the most obvious argumentum ad antiquitatem I read this year. "For thousands of years Christians have believed in Jesus Christ. Christianity must be true, to have persisted so long even in the face of persecution." Sounds familiar? Straight out of the book. [1] What's more, just because its natural or plants doesn't mean it is safe. Example: botulinum toxin the most toxic toxin known to mankind which you might know better under the name botox, entirely natural produced by bacteria. What matters is that it is standardised, of known origin (traceable/provable), well studied in clinical trials, and the mechanisms well understood. SSRIs fit all those characteristics, only the latter one not. We certainly did not have thousands of years of standardised, safe human use. Heck, we didn't even have thousands of years of safe human use to begin with. We didn't have known origin (a good movie about this is Into The Wild [2], btw). Especially not with amateurs. Doctors were more proficient, but not for thousands of years with every substance. And studies, back then not. You had doctors and witches. We've come a very long way. > Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing. > Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored. I have used psilocybin, A. muscaria, Ayahuasca, MDMA (or God knows WTF it was) among a myriad of other drugs (the first 3 bought online when it was legal in my country). Terrifying it was -for the most part- not. I had fun and insightful experiences, but now that I am older I realise I was reckless [because I am sensitive to drugs and have autism]. I know you too will, at some point in your life realise how reckless you were when you used recreational drugs. And then you will perhaps realise how reckless it was to recommend that to random strangers. And perhaps you will feel utter regret. Au revoir, all the best to you. [1] https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#antiquitatem https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#antiqu... [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/
- fogzen 9y ago
  What's reckless about it? It also seems reckless to suggest using SSRIs when we know low-serotonin does not cause depression. We know the hypothesis of low-serotonin causing depression is false, which is the entire reason for engineering then prescribing SSRIs. Yet they're still prescribed despite dubious efficacy at treating depression, and risk of dangerous side-effects and dependence.
- ada1981 9y ago
  Well, it's strange to compare mushrooms which have been used by various human cultures for 5,000 - 10,000 years with a religious figure (although I did read somewhere that Jesus Christ was actually a mushroom -- but I don't believe it [1]). A better comparison might be, people have been reading the Bible for two thousand years, so we should assume it's safe to read the bible -- not that the main character was an actual person. I used psychedelics irresponsibly in my youth, for recreational purposes -- much like it sounds you did. I'd never take MDMA without a proper spectral analysis (which you can obtain for $100 from ecstasydata.org) and with a sitter. Then I took a decade off until I was facing recurring suicidal depression and was not interested in deadening my emotional experience via western psychiatry. I was fortunate enough to be given a chance to do MDMA in a therapeutic setting as well as some healing experiences with mushrooms. No question these compounds helped me release whatever was beneath the depression and other mental issues. “Magic mushrooms are one of the safest drugs in the world,” said Adam Winstock, a consultant addiction psychiatrist and founder of the Global Drug Survey, pointing out that the bigger risk was people picking and eating the wrong mushrooms. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/23/study-hallucinogenic-mushrooms-safest-recreational-drug-lsd https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/23/study-halluc... Also, I never said they were safe because they were natural -- that is silly. There are plenty of things in nature that will kill you. We haven't had thousands of years of people using botulinum medicinally or ceremoniously. As to your claim that "What matters is that it is standardised[sic], of known origin (traceable/provable), well studied in clinical trials, and the mechanisms well understood." We have had a draconian prohibition on psychedelics in general for several decades and the promising research was cut off. So, if one is actually interested in healing, what matters is in finding what works -- and sometimes that means finding ways outside sanctioned medicine. But of course, we do have data on psychedelics and their safety and efficacy for healing -- and the results seem to be much more promising than the current approaches. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cross https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cr...

Fnoord 9y ago

> Well, at least with plant medicines we have thousands of years of safe human use. Wow, that's the most obvious argumentum ad antiquitatem I read this year. "For thousands of years Christians have believed in Jesus Christ. Christianity must be true, to have persisted so long even in the face of persecution." Sounds familiar? Straight out of the book. [1] What's more, just because its natural or plants doesn't mean it is safe. Example: botulinum toxin the most toxic toxin known to mankind which you might know better under the name botox, entirely natural produced by bacteria. What matters is that it is standardised, of known origin (traceable/provable), well studied in clinical trials, and the mechanisms well understood. SSRIs fit all those characteristics, only the latter one not. We certainly did not have thousands of years of standardised, safe human use. Heck, we didn't even have thousands of years of safe human use to begin with. We didn't have known origin (a good movie about this is Into The Wild [2], btw). Especially not with amateurs. Doctors were more proficient, but not for thousands of years with every substance. And studies, back then not. You had doctors and witches. We've come a very long way. > Mushrooms appear to be one of the safest mind altering substances known to man, and if used responsibly, can be healing. > Of course, they do show you what's inside, and for many people, they is going to terrify them. That is sort of the point though, to stare down the parts you've long ignored. I have used psilocybin, A. muscaria, Ayahuasca, MDMA (or God knows WTF it was) among a myriad of other drugs (the first 3 bought online when it was legal in my country). Terrifying it was -for the most part- not. I had fun and insightful experiences, but now that I am older I realise I was reckless [because I am sensitive to drugs and have autism]. I know you too will, at some point in your life realise how reckless you were when you used recreational drugs. And then you will perhaps realise how reckless it was to recommend that to random strangers. And perhaps you will feel utter regret. Au revoir, all the best to you. [1] https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#antiquitatem https://infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#antiqu... [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0758758/

fogzen 9y ago
What's reckless about it? It also seems reckless to suggest using SSRIs when we know low-serotonin does not cause depression. We know the hypothesis of low-serotonin causing depression is false, which is the entire reason for engineering then prescribing SSRIs. Yet they're still prescribed despite dubious efficacy at treating depression, and risk of dangerous side-effects and dependence.
ada1981 9y ago
Well, it's strange to compare mushrooms which have been used by various human cultures for 5,000 - 10,000 years with a religious figure (although I did read somewhere that Jesus Christ was actually a mushroom -- but I don't believe it [1]). A better comparison might be, people have been reading the Bible for two thousand years, so we should assume it's safe to read the bible -- not that the main character was an actual person. I used psychedelics irresponsibly in my youth, for recreational purposes -- much like it sounds you did. I'd never take MDMA without a proper spectral analysis (which you can obtain for $100 from ecstasydata.org) and with a sitter. Then I took a decade off until I was facing recurring suicidal depression and was not interested in deadening my emotional experience via western psychiatry. I was fortunate enough to be given a chance to do MDMA in a therapeutic setting as well as some healing experiences with mushrooms. No question these compounds helped me release whatever was beneath the depression and other mental issues. “Magic mushrooms are one of the safest drugs in the world,” said Adam Winstock, a consultant addiction psychiatrist and founder of the Global Drug Survey, pointing out that the bigger risk was people picking and eating the wrong mushrooms. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/23/study-hallucinogenic-mushrooms-safest-recreational-drug-lsd https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/23/study-halluc... Also, I never said they were safe because they were natural -- that is silly. There are plenty of things in nature that will kill you. We haven't had thousands of years of people using botulinum medicinally or ceremoniously. As to your claim that "What matters is that it is standardised[sic], of known origin (traceable/provable), well studied in clinical trials, and the mechanisms well understood." We have had a draconian prohibition on psychedelics in general for several decades and the promising research was cut off. So, if one is actually interested in healing, what matters is in finding what works -- and sometimes that means finding ways outside sanctioned medicine. But of course, we do have data on psychedelics and their safety and efficacy for healing -- and the results seem to be much more promising than the current approaches. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cross https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacred_Mushroom_and_the_Cr...