6 ms·

Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms

by ada1981 9y ago

Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases with the downsides of withdrawals and all the other symptoms including deceased emotions in general. There are many alternatives that have been shown to be as or more effective. Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. Spending an afternoon a week outside. Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. And of course, Psychedelics. Many of you know my story of coming from schizophrenia, bipolar, anxiety, suicidal depression, mania, etc. and going on a path of returning to my self after having a vision that what was needed to was to go into the pain more fully and then seeking out various modalities to do just that. It's possible to do, but you'll need to seek out support outside the mainstream.

Fnoord 9y ago
> Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. > Spending an afternoon a week outside. > Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. > And of course, Psychedelics. Heh, a decent psychologist would suggest #3 during e.g. CBT sessions. Suggesting #4 is downright dangerous, you don't know who reads your post. Readers, please seek professional help -based on conventional science- instead. I tried all kind of self-help BS, including using psychedelics on my own, because I did not trust conventional science (ie. psychologists, psychiatrists). None of the pseudoscientific self-help BS helped, of course, and it gave me a severe lag in my life and professional career. At the very least people should try out professional help first. But if I went on with it after the first failure (a diagnosis + meds for GAD which didn't quite work out) right afterwards, I might have figured out I have autism at my 27th instead of my 34th.
- fogzen 9y ago
  How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes... Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    > Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet [sic] understand, and both may cause serious side effects. This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying... If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science. > How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity, and there's a lack of professional guidance. Yes, you can get a panic attack on SSRIs. I had that when I started Fluoxetine because I almost fainted because my blood pressure was low whilst I was in a grocery store and had barely eaten. It happened a few times, though less severe (it is just low blood pressure), and went away after I got used to the drugs, which took longer than average. SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. Finally, SSRIs are used under guidance by a professional. Recreational drugs, in contrast, are not.
    - fogzen 9y ago
      > SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous...
      - Fnoord 9y ago
        > The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. Yes, they are; I meant psychedelic/hallucinogenic. > They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Yes, but the possible side effects are well documented and users are informed and screened beforehand and there is professional guidance (by licensed professionals who studied for it) in contrast to recreational drugs use. You know better what you dabble into when you follow the regular scientific path than the alternative path which is full with shenanigans, amateurs, wannabe experts, hippies, and downright dangerous, sick human beings. > LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous than any of the SSRIs. Ultimately, this is irrelevant. You look at the current scientific evidence when you decide which treatment you want to follow. Recreational usage of LSD to self-medicate is very low on that list: actually, it shouldn't even be on that list until its scientifically tested in clinical trials. The lack of that doesn't mean we should just suggest it to random strangers; we ought not to! > Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? No, stop turning it around. The burden of proof lies at you. You claim LSD is as useful or more useful than SSRIs.
- ada1981 9y ago
  Interesting. I'm quite passionate about this topic as I recovered from suicidal depression, bipolar and schizophrenia without pharma. Gratitude practices have been tested and shown to be significant in reducing depression, many studies on this. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7bb/972b39435b0c5481aef88b1ecc7b9eb1bdcd.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7bb/972b39435b0c5481aef88b... Time in nature is also shown to fight depression, as found by some Stanford Researchers: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/how-walking-in-nature-prevents-depression/397172/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/how-walki... I wouldn't recommend trying psychedelics on your own, rather used in a specific therapeutic setting with a trained sitter / guide. There are all sorts of studies on the effectiveness of psychedleic mushrooms on depression or MDMA for PTSD, etc. Maps.org has ample info. For me, I'm lucky that I didn't trust the mainstream Doctors who wanted to put me on antipsychotics or whatever else. And I was blessed to find my way through medical research to find a path that worked. In no small part due to helping Peter Theil launch a startup in the private medical research space -- that experience showed my how very inefficient our medical system is at getting up to date information and practices to folks.
DanBC 9y ago
> Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases This isn't true. We know that antidepressants are significantly more effective than placaebo for most people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 We are now gathering evidence about which antidepressants are most effective and least likely to cause people to stop using them: https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/content/signal-00580/the-most-effective-antidepressants-for-adults-revealed-in-major-review https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/content/signal-00580/the-most...
- ada1981 9y ago
  I'd hardly say that this meta analysis is definitive, but useful. Here is a recent meta analysis suggesting not much more than placebo. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/ I'm the study you referenced, did you notice if they compared it to active placebo or just placebo? It seemed they did an 8 week eval which is still within the 3 month window in which active placebo seems to be at work. Also, why would we want people to be less likely to stop using antidepressants (if I read your comment correctly).

Fnoord 9y ago

> Writing and then reading 14 Gratitude Letters to people. > Spending an afternoon a week outside. > Practicing telling the 100% truth in your relationships. > And of course, Psychedelics. Heh, a decent psychologist would suggest #3 during e.g. CBT sessions. Suggesting #4 is downright dangerous, you don't know who reads your post. Readers, please seek professional help -based on conventional science- instead. I tried all kind of self-help BS, including using psychedelics on my own, because I did not trust conventional science (ie. psychologists, psychiatrists). None of the pseudoscientific self-help BS helped, of course, and it gave me a severe lag in my life and professional career. At the very least people should try out professional help first. But if I went on with it after the first failure (a diagnosis + meds for GAD which didn't quite work out) right afterwards, I might have figured out I have autism at my 27th instead of my 34th.

fogzen 9y ago
How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Data shows both can cause panic attacks and psychotic episodes... Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet understand, and both may cause serious side effects.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  > Both drugs have mechanisms of action we don’t fully yet [sic] understand, and both may cause serious side effects. This is an extremely narrow and arbitrary ruleset you are applying... If not merely because of the word "fully". That's a given in science. > How is suggesting psychedelics more dangerous than suggesting the use of antidepressants? Because psychedelics are not approved, you don't know the source/purity, and there's a lack of professional guidance. Yes, you can get a panic attack on SSRIs. I had that when I started Fluoxetine because I almost fainted because my blood pressure was low whilst I was in a grocery store and had barely eaten. It happened a few times, though less severe (it is just low blood pressure), and went away after I got used to the drugs, which took longer than average. SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. Finally, SSRIs are used under guidance by a professional. Recreational drugs, in contrast, are not.
  - fogzen 9y ago
    > SSRIs are not psychoactive, and better studied. The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous...
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      > The whole point of taking SSRI's is to affect the mind, so they are literally psychoactive. Yes, they are; I meant psychedelic/hallucinogenic. > They are better studied, but the risks you mentioned are associated with SSRI's as well as LSD. Yes, but the possible side effects are well documented and users are informed and screened beforehand and there is professional guidance (by licensed professionals who studied for it) in contrast to recreational drugs use. You know better what you dabble into when you follow the regular scientific path than the alternative path which is full with shenanigans, amateurs, wannabe experts, hippies, and downright dangerous, sick human beings. > LSD not being studied as much doesn't mean it's more dangerous than any of the SSRIs. Ultimately, this is irrelevant. You look at the current scientific evidence when you decide which treatment you want to follow. Recreational usage of LSD to self-medicate is very low on that list: actually, it shouldn't even be on that list until its scientifically tested in clinical trials. The lack of that doesn't mean we should just suggest it to random strangers; we ought not to! > Do you have evidence/study that shows LSD is more dangerous than SSRIs? No, stop turning it around. The burden of proof lies at you. You claim LSD is as useful or more useful than SSRIs.
ada1981 9y ago
Interesting. I'm quite passionate about this topic as I recovered from suicidal depression, bipolar and schizophrenia without pharma. Gratitude practices have been tested and shown to be significant in reducing depression, many studies on this. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7bb/972b39435b0c5481aef88b1ecc7b9eb1bdcd.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/a7bb/972b39435b0c5481aef88b... Time in nature is also shown to fight depression, as found by some Stanford Researchers: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/how-walking-in-nature-prevents-depression/397172/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/06/how-walki... I wouldn't recommend trying psychedelics on your own, rather used in a specific therapeutic setting with a trained sitter / guide. There are all sorts of studies on the effectiveness of psychedleic mushrooms on depression or MDMA for PTSD, etc. Maps.org has ample info. For me, I'm lucky that I didn't trust the mainstream Doctors who wanted to put me on antipsychotics or whatever else. And I was blessed to find my way through medical research to find a path that worked. In no small part due to helping Peter Theil launch a startup in the private medical research space -- that experience showed my how very inefficient our medical system is at getting up to date information and practices to folks.

DanBC 9y ago

> Keep in mind that SSRIs appear to do little more than active placebo in the vast majority of cases This isn't true. We know that antidepressants are significantly more effective than placaebo for most people. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29477251 We are now gathering evidence about which antidepressants are most effective and least likely to cause people to stop using them: https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/content/signal-00580/the-most-effective-antidepressants-for-adults-revealed-in-major-review https://discover.dc.nihr.ac.uk/content/signal-00580/the-most...

ada1981 9y ago
I'd hardly say that this meta analysis is definitive, but useful. Here is a recent meta analysis suggesting not much more than placebo. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4592645/ I'm the study you referenced, did you notice if they compared it to active placebo or just placebo? It seemed they did an 8 week eval which is still within the 3 month window in which active placebo seems to be at work. Also, why would we want people to be less likely to stop using antidepressants (if I read your comment correctly).