6 ms·

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics.

by Zak 9y ago

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.

8note 9y ago
are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.
- selimthegrim 9y ago
  Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.
shripadk 9y ago
> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.
- Zak 9y ago
  > Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay and provided no information other than a mailing address (not mine).
  - shripadk 9y ago
    By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the cost of acquiring the digital signature and the fact that you need to keep renewing it every few years. 3. Just authenticate using your Aadhaar number. An OTP will be sent to your mobile number and you just need to enter the same on screen. Once verified, you have digitally signed and submitted your tax return. I find option 3 really appealing. This is just one practical example of where one can use Aadhaar and OTP for authentication.
    - captn3m0 9y ago
      I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switching legal consent to a mere 6 digit OTP is a terrible idea. Even more so because SMS is unencrypted and terrible way of sending secrets. There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere. I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.
      - shripadk 9y ago
        I should have been more clear. I'm talking about after filing of returns. You have to verify it. It's either sending the signed acknowledgement to CPC or everify it digitally. Have you sent the signed acknowledgement to CPC? It's mandatory to send acknowledgement to CPC if you haven't digitally signed it using DSC or Aadhaar. Please check with your CA as the rules are same for personal and corporate income tax. EDIT: Procedure to verify your submitted tax return: https://www.hrblock.in/guides/itrv-download-guide/ https://www.hrblock.in/guides/itrv-download-guide/
- captn3m0 9y ago
  I have a recycled SIM which I legally own, which is linked to the prior owner's Aadhaar. It will remain linked even if I link my SIM with my Aadhaar. (The Aadhaar->SIM mapping which the government uses is maintained by UIDAI and is not given out, the SIM->Aadhaar mapping which is mandated by DoT is maintained by KYC-regulations of my telecom provider at the telco level)
  - Zak 9y ago
    There are KYC regulations for telcos? Found the Orwellian part.
    - captn3m0 9y ago
      Yes, these have existed for quite some time. However, you could get one with varying different ID proofs earlier - Driving License, Ration Card, PAN (Tax) Card, Voter ID etc. Now, we're all being forced to link _everything_ to a single 12-digit Aadhaar.
      - Zak 9y ago
        What justification is given for this?
        captn3m0 9y ago
        As per lawyers, the justification for Aadhaar-linkage is very slim[0], but the government is pushing telcos to link so it is happening. The events: 1. Supreme Court asks DoT in a regular about the status of KYC for telcos and asks for all SIMs to be compliant within a year 2. DoT (department of telco) rewords the above a "direction" (it was not binding till then) of the SC and makes Aadhaar-KYC mandatory (when the original order did not mention Aadhaar in any way, just KYC) As for the original KYC-law, I'm not entirely sure, but it has existed for decades now. [0]: https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supreme-court-has-not-made-it-mandatory-for-you-to-link-your-phone-with-aadhaar_a_23210185/ https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supre...
- fgpwd 9y ago
  That's not how it works. Your aadhar account is linked to one number. Why do you need to link all your numbers to your aadhar? Besides the link is not two way. Case in point - a friend forgot to recharge their phone. The phone went out of service. Another person got the phone and started getting my friend's aadhar otps. Even though they got the phone using their own aadhar number. The "link your phone to aadhar when you need a new connection" has got nothing to do with "link your aadhar number to your phone in order to get authentication OTPs". They are two entirely different processes.
captn3m0 9y ago
>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider if the amount you are spending to tackle fraud in the system - is it worth it? Also, Aadhaar is not a fraud-proof system. The most common type of subsidy-fraud (for food benefits) is quantity fraud where the shopkeeper would sign away 5kg, but only give you 4kg (and sell the other 1kg at a higher rate on the market). There is nothing in the aadhaar system that prevents it (and other kinds of fraud) Second: Exclusions. Jharkhand, with the highest rate of authentication failures has had multiple deaths. Due to how the system works now (you receive benefits in your bank account instead of directly getting subsidized rations), it requires double the effort (which converts to one-fewer working/earning day because of the extra bank trip). https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-benefit-transfer https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-... is a harrowing read, if someone's interested. >* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. We've gone beyond this. Nursery schools in india for toddlers now demand aadhaar numbers of both parents and the kid.
- Zak 9y ago
  The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.
  - captn3m0 9y ago
    It is guaranteed to get worse if the Supreme Court doesn't step in. For eg - Aadhaar enabled payments are on their way, and there is a push from the government to get Aadhaar authenticated ATMs out (fingerprint based). Think of what happens when your Aadhaar is disabled? We've already had people die on hospital entrances because they couldn't find the patient's Aadhaar[0], now we're moving closer to a guaranteed civil death. The state of Telangana, for eg is turning into a over-policed state with: - The state police maintaining a copy of the Aadhaar Data[1] - And using it to geo-tag each resident[2] - And track petty crimes using aadhaar[3] Our only hope at this point is that the Supreme Court gives a favorable verdict. [0]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital-kin-fight-over-aadhaar-card-kargil-martyraposs-widow-dies/articleshow/62301231.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital... [1]: http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html [2]: https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 [3]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-link-singes-hyderabad-cops-to-go-slow-on-petty-offenders/articleshow/57865184.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-l...

by Zak 9y ago

8note 9y ago

are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.

selimthegrim 9y ago
Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.

shripadk 9y ago

> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.

Zak 9y ago
> Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay and provided no information other than a mailing address (not mine).
- shripadk 9y ago
  By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the cost of acquiring the digital signature and the fact that you need to keep renewing it every few years. 3. Just authenticate using your Aadhaar number. An OTP will be sent to your mobile number and you just need to enter the same on screen. Once verified, you have digitally signed and submitted your tax return. I find option 3 really appealing. This is just one practical example of where one can use Aadhaar and OTP for authentication.
  - captn3m0 9y ago
    I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switching legal consent to a mere 6 digit OTP is a terrible idea. Even more so because SMS is unencrypted and terrible way of sending secrets. There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere. I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.
    - shripadk 9y ago
      I should have been more clear. I'm talking about after filing of returns. You have to verify it. It's either sending the signed acknowledgement to CPC or everify it digitally. Have you sent the signed acknowledgement to CPC? It's mandatory to send acknowledgement to CPC if you haven't digitally signed it using DSC or Aadhaar. Please check with your CA as the rules are same for personal and corporate income tax. EDIT: Procedure to verify your submitted tax return: https://www.hrblock.in/guides/itrv-download-guide/ https://www.hrblock.in/guides/itrv-download-guide/
captn3m0 9y ago
I have a recycled SIM which I legally own, which is linked to the prior owner's Aadhaar. It will remain linked even if I link my SIM with my Aadhaar. (The Aadhaar->SIM mapping which the government uses is maintained by UIDAI and is not given out, the SIM->Aadhaar mapping which is mandated by DoT is maintained by KYC-regulations of my telecom provider at the telco level)
- Zak 9y ago
  There are KYC regulations for telcos? Found the Orwellian part.
  - captn3m0 9y ago
    Yes, these have existed for quite some time. However, you could get one with varying different ID proofs earlier - Driving License, Ration Card, PAN (Tax) Card, Voter ID etc. Now, we're all being forced to link _everything_ to a single 12-digit Aadhaar.
    - Zak 9y ago
      What justification is given for this?
      - captn3m0 9y ago
        As per lawyers, the justification for Aadhaar-linkage is very slim[0], but the government is pushing telcos to link so it is happening. The events: 1. Supreme Court asks DoT in a regular about the status of KYC for telcos and asks for all SIMs to be compliant within a year 2. DoT (department of telco) rewords the above a "direction" (it was not binding till then) of the SC and makes Aadhaar-KYC mandatory (when the original order did not mention Aadhaar in any way, just KYC) As for the original KYC-law, I'm not entirely sure, but it has existed for decades now. [0]: https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supreme-court-has-not-made-it-mandatory-for-you-to-link-your-phone-with-aadhaar_a_23210185/ https://www.huffingtonpost.in/chitranshul-sinha/no-the-supre...
fgpwd 9y ago
That's not how it works. Your aadhar account is linked to one number. Why do you need to link all your numbers to your aadhar? Besides the link is not two way. Case in point - a friend forgot to recharge their phone. The phone went out of service. Another person got the phone and started getting my friend's aadhar otps. Even though they got the phone using their own aadhar number. The "link your phone to aadhar when you need a new connection" has got nothing to do with "link your aadhar number to your phone in order to get authentication OTPs". They are two entirely different processes.

captn3m0 9y ago

>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider if the amount you are spending to tackle fraud in the system - is it worth it? Also, Aadhaar is not a fraud-proof system. The most common type of subsidy-fraud (for food benefits) is quantity fraud where the shopkeeper would sign away 5kg, but only give you 4kg (and sell the other 1kg at a higher rate on the market). There is nothing in the aadhaar system that prevents it (and other kinds of fraud) Second: Exclusions. Jharkhand, with the highest rate of authentication failures has had multiple deaths. Due to how the system works now (you receive benefits in your bank account instead of directly getting subsidized rations), it requires double the effort (which converts to one-fewer working/earning day because of the extra bank trip). https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-benefit-transfer https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-... is a harrowing read, if someone's interested. >* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. We've gone beyond this. Nursery schools in india for toddlers now demand aadhaar numbers of both parents and the kid.

Zak 9y ago
The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.
- captn3m0 9y ago
  It is guaranteed to get worse if the Supreme Court doesn't step in. For eg - Aadhaar enabled payments are on their way, and there is a push from the government to get Aadhaar authenticated ATMs out (fingerprint based). Think of what happens when your Aadhaar is disabled? We've already had people die on hospital entrances because they couldn't find the patient's Aadhaar[0], now we're moving closer to a guaranteed civil death. The state of Telangana, for eg is turning into a over-policed state with: - The state police maintaining a copy of the Aadhaar Data[1] - And using it to geo-tag each resident[2] - And track petty crimes using aadhaar[3] Our only hope at this point is that the Supreme Court gives a favorable verdict. [0]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital-kin-fight-over-aadhaar-card-kargil-martyraposs-widow-dies/articleshow/62301231.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital... [1]: http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html [2]: https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 [3]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-link-singes-hyderabad-cops-to-go-slow-on-petty-offenders/articleshow/57865184.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-l...