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I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distributed because there are scams where a person claims to be somebody else or there is no clear identification system, all of this significantly affect the GDP and the rate at which people’s std of life is improved. I think if it gets misused , then the solution to that is regulation and better management, not no collection.

Zak 8y ago
I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.
- 8note 8y ago
  are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.
  - selimthegrim 8y ago
    Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.
- shripadk 8y ago
  > Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.
  - Zak 8y ago
    > Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay and provided no information other than a mailing address (not mine).
    - shripadk 8y ago
      By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the cost of acquiring the digital signature and the fact that you need to keep renewing it every few years. 3. Just authenticate using your Aadhaar number. An OTP will be sent to your mobile number and you just need to enter the same on screen. Once verified, you have digitally signed and submitted your tax return. I find option 3 really appealing. This is just one practical example of where one can use Aadhaar and OTP for authentication.
      - captn3m0 8y ago
        I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switching legal consent to a mere 6 digit OTP is a terrible idea. Even more so because SMS is unencrypted and terrible way of sending secrets. There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere. I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.
- captn3m0 8y ago
  >The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider if the amount you are spending to tackle fraud in the system - is it worth it? Also, Aadhaar is not a fraud-proof system. The most common type of subsidy-fraud (for food benefits) is quantity fraud where the shopkeeper would sign away 5kg, but only give you 4kg (and sell the other 1kg at a higher rate on the market). There is nothing in the aadhaar system that prevents it (and other kinds of fraud) Second: Exclusions. Jharkhand, with the highest rate of authentication failures has had multiple deaths. Due to how the system works now (you receive benefits in your bank account instead of directly getting subsidized rations), it requires double the effort (which converts to one-fewer working/earning day because of the extra bank trip). https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-benefit-transfer https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-... is a harrowing read, if someone's interested. >* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. We've gone beyond this. Nursery schools in india for toddlers now demand aadhaar numbers of both parents and the kid.
  - Zak 8y ago
    The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.
    - captn3m0 8y ago
      It is guaranteed to get worse if the Supreme Court doesn't step in. For eg - Aadhaar enabled payments are on their way, and there is a push from the government to get Aadhaar authenticated ATMs out (fingerprint based). Think of what happens when your Aadhaar is disabled? We've already had people die on hospital entrances because they couldn't find the patient's Aadhaar[0], now we're moving closer to a guaranteed civil death. The state of Telangana, for eg is turning into a over-policed state with: - The state police maintaining a copy of the Aadhaar Data[1] - And using it to geo-tag each resident[2] - And track petty crimes using aadhaar[3] Our only hope at this point is that the Supreme Court gives a favorable verdict. [0]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital-kin-fight-over-aadhaar-card-kargil-martyraposs-widow-dies/articleshow/62301231.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital... [1]: http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html [2]: https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 [3]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-link-singes-hyderabad-cops-to-go-slow-on-petty-offenders/articleshow/57865184.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-l...
intended 8y ago
There is a cost benefit analysis, and many people have shown that the govt figures are incorrect, and that Aadhar has not had an impact. I am fully sincere about it. Straight up Aadhar has hurt our constitution. IT was initially run without ANY legal protections or aegis. Later it was retroactively Okayed via a money bill. It has rarely been used for its intended purpose, but instead it has terminal feature creep and support from the state to enter every sphere of life. The state govts are now making their own mirrored data bases of Aadhar data, which last I checked is not covered by the Aadhar law. The aadhar agency is the only agency which can take cognizance of Aadhar offenses - making the agency its own judge and jury. Aadhar was never meant for scam protection or prevention - take a look at the claims of the Aadhar agency. They use clever tactics to appear to be enablers, but when put on the spot they reduce their job to "we just authenticate biometric requests" - moving the onus and responsibility for any leaks or misuse to other agencies.

Zak 8y ago

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.

8note 8y ago
are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.
- selimthegrim 8y ago
  Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.
shripadk 8y ago
> Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.
- Zak 8y ago
  > Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay and provided no information other than a mailing address (not mine).
  - shripadk 8y ago
    By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the cost of acquiring the digital signature and the fact that you need to keep renewing it every few years. 3. Just authenticate using your Aadhaar number. An OTP will be sent to your mobile number and you just need to enter the same on screen. Once verified, you have digitally signed and submitted your tax return. I find option 3 really appealing. This is just one practical example of where one can use Aadhaar and OTP for authentication.
    - captn3m0 8y ago
      I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switching legal consent to a mere 6 digit OTP is a terrible idea. Even more so because SMS is unencrypted and terrible way of sending secrets. There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere. I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.
captn3m0 8y ago
>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider if the amount you are spending to tackle fraud in the system - is it worth it? Also, Aadhaar is not a fraud-proof system. The most common type of subsidy-fraud (for food benefits) is quantity fraud where the shopkeeper would sign away 5kg, but only give you 4kg (and sell the other 1kg at a higher rate on the market). There is nothing in the aadhaar system that prevents it (and other kinds of fraud) Second: Exclusions. Jharkhand, with the highest rate of authentication failures has had multiple deaths. Due to how the system works now (you receive benefits in your bank account instead of directly getting subsidized rations), it requires double the effort (which converts to one-fewer working/earning day because of the extra bank trip). https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-benefit-transfer https://thewire.in/rights/jharkhand-nagri-ration-pds-direct-... is a harrowing read, if someone's interested. >* Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. We've gone beyond this. Nursery schools in india for toddlers now demand aadhaar numbers of both parents and the kid.
- Zak 8y ago
  The parts that sounded reasonable sound less so given this context.
  - captn3m0 8y ago
    It is guaranteed to get worse if the Supreme Court doesn't step in. For eg - Aadhaar enabled payments are on their way, and there is a push from the government to get Aadhaar authenticated ATMs out (fingerprint based). Think of what happens when your Aadhaar is disabled? We've already had people die on hospital entrances because they couldn't find the patient's Aadhaar[0], now we're moving closer to a guaranteed civil death. The state of Telangana, for eg is turning into a over-policed state with: - The state police maintaining a copy of the Aadhaar Data[1] - And using it to geo-tag each resident[2] - And track petty crimes using aadhaar[3] Our only hope at this point is that the Supreme Court gives a favorable verdict. [0]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital-kin-fight-over-aadhaar-card-kargil-martyraposs-widow-dies/articleshow/62301231.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chandigarh/hospital... [1]: http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html http://srdh.telangana.gov.in/tgsrdh/DataSeeding.html [2]: https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 https://twitter.com/digitaldutta/status/958251786803994624 [3]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-link-singes-hyderabad-cops-to-go-slow-on-petty-offenders/articleshow/57865184.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/aadhaar-l...

intended 8y ago

There is a cost benefit analysis, and many people have shown that the govt figures are incorrect, and that Aadhar has not had an impact. I am fully sincere about it. Straight up Aadhar has hurt our constitution. IT was initially run without ANY legal protections or aegis. Later it was retroactively Okayed via a money bill. It has rarely been used for its intended purpose, but instead it has terminal feature creep and support from the state to enter every sphere of life. The state govts are now making their own mirrored data bases of Aadhar data, which last I checked is not covered by the Aadhar law. The aadhar agency is the only agency which can take cognizance of Aadhar offenses - making the agency its own judge and jury. Aadhar was never meant for scam protection or prevention - take a look at the claims of the Aadhar agency. They use clever tactics to appear to be enablers, but when put on the spot they reduce their job to "we just authenticate biometric requests" - moving the onus and responsibility for any leaks or misuse to other agencies.