6 ms·

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon b

by firasd 9y ago

First of all, Aadhaar is not just being used for welfare schemes. It is a giant database getting linked to everything. I wouldn't be surprised if it will soon be mandatory for booking flights. Plus much of the database has leaked. You can find thousands of Aadhar cards online just by googling. As far as preventing 'leakage'--the best approach would be to not subsidize products but to move to direct benefits transfer (like food stamps in the US.) The government has been doing this anyway, for things like the LGP cooking gas subsidy. But even that has been problematic in terms of implementation. When it comes to solving corruption, we can't let technocratic bureaucrats come up with solutions in air-conditioned offices and hand-wave away the deprivation and other problems their solutions cause on the ground.

haltingproblem 9y ago
And how do you provide DBT - direct benefits transfer - to whom? How do you qualify them? Underpinning all this is identity. A modern state that cannot establish identity is not very useful. (Wow, I am being downvoted).
- firasd 9y ago
  The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.
  - haltingproblem 9y ago
    So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel joke in their economic context. They would have to give up a significant part of the benefits to middlemen in the old system. (edited).
    - firasd 9y ago
      Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question.
      - shripadk 9y ago
        > I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage It used to be the case before but is no longer the case. Aadhaar, even by this very article's admission, states that "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services." $9.4 billion is a huge amount of money saved by the exchequer. That is almost 2% of the India's annual budget. In a country with a very small tax base, every rupee saved is an earning in itself.
        intended 9y ago
        That is untrue - aadhar introduces the problem of false rejections. First - Most of the savings which the govt has attributed to aadhar they later walked back and admited it was due to gas price reductions and not because of aadhar. Second - auth failures result in people not getting their ration- these are then counted as savings by the govt. if they were correctly accounted as a liability not only would the savings vaporize, additional costs would appear.
      - haltingproblem 9y ago
        > airy theoretical concept This is personal for you - I am not directly affected by Aaddaar. Perhaps you should step back and ponder the question I had posed. Aadhaar strikes a raw nerve among many. Similar to the debate over ACA in the US. I am simply trying to understand why.
ashwinm 9y ago
What leak exactly? What do anyone achieve by getting your number? Does this outweigh it benefits? Now you want India to stop subsiding poor? Do you even know the level difference between US and India. And history of political/economic systems? And who should be making solutions, Internet warriors like you ? Comparing US, then bend over and gives his DNA to get a tourist visa. Hay, I gave it voluntary !
iguy 9y ago
Plus much of the database has leaked. Honest question: how much does this matter? For instance, I believe in Denmark your ID number is simply not a secret at all, no more than your name. While in the US, your SSN & address basically seems to let any crook empty your bank account.
- captn3m0 9y ago
  Aadhaar number enables identity fraud. Since paper-aadhaar is still very much accepted as a proof, just having the number is enough (in many cases) to take over someone's identity and get a new SIM issued, which you can then use for emptying the bank account. There are also phishing scams happening with Aadhaar since it uses OTP as the authentication factor. We have OTPs as 2FA for bank transactions, and it works because the first factor is still secret (credit card number or your banking credentials). However, if your first factor is your Aadhaar number, the security goes down tremendously, since every organization under the sun is now asking your Aadhaar. I'm tempted to wardrive Aadhaar OTPs sent over unencrypted SMS.
  - enitihas 9y ago
    I think you need an OTP to get online Aadhar PDF. So you can't get paper Aadhaar just by knowing the Aadhar number.
    - iguy 9y ago
      What exactly is paper Aadhaar, just a PDF with the number on it, which you print & bring to the phone shop? Can you forge one with MS Word or is it somehow more secure than that?
      - enitihas 9y ago
        Is voter id card something different?
  - shripadk 9y ago
    > Since paper-aadhaar is still very much accepted as a proof, just having the number is enough (in many cases) to take over someone's identity and get a new SIM issued, which you can then use for emptying the bank account. Weird. Maybe it's different from state to state or probably area to area. Atleast where I reside (Telangana), getting a new SIM requires fingerprint authentication followed by SMS OTP to an existing mobile number. If you do not have an existing number linked to Aadhaar, only then a fingerprint scan would suffice. I have also opened a bank account here following the same procedure. I had to get one number ported and that required multiple authentication too.

by firasd 9y ago

haltingproblem 9y ago

And how do you provide DBT - direct benefits transfer - to whom? How do you qualify them? Underpinning all this is identity. A modern state that cannot establish identity is not very useful. (Wow, I am being downvoted).

firasd 9y ago
The money goes into people's bank accounts which already have many know-your-customer ID requirements. If also requiring Aadhaar for bank accounts was the limit of its mandate there would be a lot less outrage. The creeping, maximalist scope is what causes the increasing discomfort among people about this program.
- haltingproblem 9y ago
  So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel joke in their economic context. They would have to give up a significant part of the benefits to middlemen in the old system. (edited).
  - firasd 9y ago
    Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my Aadhaar to my phone yet and if the Supreme Court hadn't extended the deadline my phone would have stopped working by now. This thing is a real and present menace, not just a political science question.
    - shripadk 9y ago
      > I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage It used to be the case before but is no longer the case. Aadhaar, even by this very article's admission, states that "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services." $9.4 billion is a huge amount of money saved by the exchequer. That is almost 2% of the India's annual budget. In a country with a very small tax base, every rupee saved is an earning in itself.
      - intended 9y ago
        That is untrue - aadhar introduces the problem of false rejections. First - Most of the savings which the govt has attributed to aadhar they later walked back and admited it was due to gas price reductions and not because of aadhar. Second - auth failures result in people not getting their ration- these are then counted as savings by the govt. if they were correctly accounted as a liability not only would the savings vaporize, additional costs would appear.
    - haltingproblem 9y ago
      > airy theoretical concept This is personal for you - I am not directly affected by Aaddaar. Perhaps you should step back and ponder the question I had posed. Aadhaar strikes a raw nerve among many. Similar to the debate over ACA in the US. I am simply trying to understand why.

ashwinm 9y ago

What leak exactly? What do anyone achieve by getting your number? Does this outweigh it benefits? Now you want India to stop subsiding poor? Do you even know the level difference between US and India. And history of political/economic systems? And who should be making solutions, Internet warriors like you ? Comparing US, then bend over and gives his DNA to get a tourist visa. Hay, I gave it voluntary !

iguy 9y ago

Plus much of the database has leaked. Honest question: how much does this matter? For instance, I believe in Denmark your ID number is simply not a secret at all, no more than your name. While in the US, your SSN & address basically seems to let any crook empty your bank account.

captn3m0 9y ago
Aadhaar number enables identity fraud. Since paper-aadhaar is still very much accepted as a proof, just having the number is enough (in many cases) to take over someone's identity and get a new SIM issued, which you can then use for emptying the bank account. There are also phishing scams happening with Aadhaar since it uses OTP as the authentication factor. We have OTPs as 2FA for bank transactions, and it works because the first factor is still secret (credit card number or your banking credentials). However, if your first factor is your Aadhaar number, the security goes down tremendously, since every organization under the sun is now asking your Aadhaar. I'm tempted to wardrive Aadhaar OTPs sent over unencrypted SMS.
- enitihas 9y ago
  I think you need an OTP to get online Aadhar PDF. So you can't get paper Aadhaar just by knowing the Aadhar number.
  - iguy 9y ago
    What exactly is paper Aadhaar, just a PDF with the number on it, which you print & bring to the phone shop? Can you forge one with MS Word or is it somehow more secure than that?
    - enitihas 9y ago
      Is voter id card something different?
- shripadk 9y ago
  > Since paper-aadhaar is still very much accepted as a proof, just having the number is enough (in many cases) to take over someone's identity and get a new SIM issued, which you can then use for emptying the bank account. Weird. Maybe it's different from state to state or probably area to area. Atleast where I reside (Telangana), getting a new SIM requires fingerprint authentication followed by SMS OTP to an existing mobile number. If you do not have an existing number linked to Aadhaar, only then a fingerprint scan would suffice. I have also opened a bank account here following the same procedure. I had to get one number ported and that required multiple authentication too.