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I don't see that as a counterargument, more of a strawman. Eugenics is based on the gene pool not on relative levels of wealth (as I understand it). Honestly,

by collyw 9y ago

I don't see that as a counterargument, more of a strawman. Eugenics is based on the gene pool not on relative levels of wealth (as I understand it). Honestly, if you live in desperate poverty, why would you want to bring a child into the world knowing the amount of suffering that its is likely to live through? Yet the poorest people seem to be the most likely to have the most children. Maybe another way of phrasing the headline would be: "The poor are reproducing far faster than the rich" It doesn't sound as shocking then.

letslightafire 9y ago
Most people who are that poor are not educated enough about reproduction to prevent childbirth due to lack of sexual contraceptives or information about safe-sex. They are born to absolute poverty and know little outside of their little town or country. Sex to them might just be seen as something you do with little to no consequence or something that just comes easily. What you see as suffering might be seen as normal daily life to them which is terrible. The way most children in richer countries live might seem foreign to them. That being said, infant mortality is also very high in those countries so a chunk of those children born will not make it past 20 years old. I do believe that as countries get richer the people of the country start having more responsibilities and jobs and those overwhelm the time available to take care of kids.
- joefourier 9y ago
  It might also be that having kids increases your economic prosperity in the case of many poor individuals - extra manual labour on a farm, additional household income, and a retirement strategy for when you are older and incapable of supporting yourself independently.
- iguy 9y ago
  poor are not educated enough about reproduction to prevent childbirth Many people say this. But it's worth knowing that, historically, lots of societies firmly limited reproduction when they were as poor as (say) most of Africa is now. The methods varied.
  - letslightafire 9y ago
    I can only think of China as an example of purposely limiting reproduction, what others are there?
    - iguy 9y ago
      Right, 20th century China is the example of government limiting reproduction which springs to mind. What I had in mind was people limiting their own. In the west the main mechanism was delayed marriage (i.e. saving up a socially approved amount of money first) which kept us well away from starvation 500 years ago. In china/japan I believe the pattern was more infanticide (in the same period) but know less about this.
verylittlemeat 9y ago
>Honestly, if you live in desperate poverty, why would you want to bring a child into the world knowing the amount of suffering that its is likely to live through? Having children is a fundamental human activity. It gives people purpose, connection, novelty and a million other things I can't think of since I'm not a parent or a mother. As you say, many poor people have many children. Perhaps you should look into what giving birth means to them rather than just assuming they're selfish idiots.
- collyw 9y ago
  It was you who called them "selfish idiots" not me. I know exactly what giving birth means.
  - verylittlemeat 9y ago
    >why would you want to bring a child into the world knowing the amount of suffering that its is likely to live through? This statement is all but calling them selfish idiots. Your question is nothing but a self serving rhetorical for conclusions you already made.
    - collyw 9y ago
      No its not. A lack of thought is closer to what I was thinking. It takes a lot of effort raising a child, especially in poverty. I don't think of that as selfish.

by collyw 9y ago

letslightafire 9y ago

Most people who are that poor are not educated enough about reproduction to prevent childbirth due to lack of sexual contraceptives or information about safe-sex. They are born to absolute poverty and know little outside of their little town or country. Sex to them might just be seen as something you do with little to no consequence or something that just comes easily. What you see as suffering might be seen as normal daily life to them which is terrible. The way most children in richer countries live might seem foreign to them. That being said, infant mortality is also very high in those countries so a chunk of those children born will not make it past 20 years old. I do believe that as countries get richer the people of the country start having more responsibilities and jobs and those overwhelm the time available to take care of kids.

joefourier 9y ago
It might also be that having kids increases your economic prosperity in the case of many poor individuals - extra manual labour on a farm, additional household income, and a retirement strategy for when you are older and incapable of supporting yourself independently.
iguy 9y ago
poor are not educated enough about reproduction to prevent childbirth Many people say this. But it's worth knowing that, historically, lots of societies firmly limited reproduction when they were as poor as (say) most of Africa is now. The methods varied.
- letslightafire 9y ago
  I can only think of China as an example of purposely limiting reproduction, what others are there?
  - iguy 9y ago
    Right, 20th century China is the example of government limiting reproduction which springs to mind. What I had in mind was people limiting their own. In the west the main mechanism was delayed marriage (i.e. saving up a socially approved amount of money first) which kept us well away from starvation 500 years ago. In china/japan I believe the pattern was more infanticide (in the same period) but know less about this.

verylittlemeat 9y ago

>Honestly, if you live in desperate poverty, why would you want to bring a child into the world knowing the amount of suffering that its is likely to live through? Having children is a fundamental human activity. It gives people purpose, connection, novelty and a million other things I can't think of since I'm not a parent or a mother. As you say, many poor people have many children. Perhaps you should look into what giving birth means to them rather than just assuming they're selfish idiots.

collyw 9y ago
It was you who called them "selfish idiots" not me. I know exactly what giving birth means.
- verylittlemeat 9y ago
  >why would you want to bring a child into the world knowing the amount of suffering that its is likely to live through? This statement is all but calling them selfish idiots. Your question is nothing but a self serving rhetorical for conclusions you already made.
  - collyw 9y ago
    No its not. A lack of thought is closer to what I was thinking. It takes a lot of effort raising a child, especially in poverty. I don't think of that as selfish.