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We’re at the point now where labels such as “capitalist” and “communist” is meaningless. China is a purported communist country but is minting more billionaires

We’re at the point now where labels such as “capitalist” and “communist” is meaningless. China is a purported communist country but is minting more billionaires per year than any other country.

knuththetruth 8y ago
This seems like a strange sentiment when the trajectory of wealth accumulation and power in Capitalists societies track pretty closely with the analysis of Marxism. Unless your saying that all ostensibly communist societies are actually examples of State Capitalism.
jadedhacker 8y ago
I disagree that labels are meaningless. Capitalism is well understood to mean private ownership of the means of production. China is doing a lot of different things and most people understand that.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  If it's so well understood why is everyone including those in power acting is helpless? Even the rich warn about the problems. I don't think things like "money", "capitalism" etc are well understood at all. It may not even be possible because those are very fuzzy terms that describe vastly different things depending on what aspects you are looking at and they consist of >90% context. IMO any discussion waving around any of those words can be safely ignored or engaged in only because one is extremely bored and wants entertainment.
  - jadedhacker 8y ago
    That's kind of a confusing line of questioning. People are pointing out problems yes (I often agree with them, I'm a socialist), but that doesn't change the definitions of words. If we muddy the words, we won't even know what we're talking about and that favors the status quo. The remedy for ambiguity is clarity.
    - ItsMe000001 8y ago
      > the definitions of words. ...is extremely ambiguous, context dependent, variable. Especially for words ending in '-ism'. > The remedy for ambiguity is clarity. Then don't use words from the extreme end of the range of vapor words. Instead, talk about something concrete.
Eric_WVGG 8y ago
And a capitalist society wouldn’t privatize profits but socialize risk.
- cmurf 8y ago
  Why? What kind of law, or institution, or self-regulation prevents it?
alexanderdmitri 8y ago
This is a very good point. It's like trying to trouble shoot a system failure in a bullet train based on a 19th century document detailing train locomotion.
wpietri 8y ago
Yeah, I'm not sure "communist" was ever a particularly valuable label, in that anything large and nominally communist was more statist or totalitarian oligarchy, just painted red. My understanding is that as envisioned, the state would "wither away", devolving power to the people, but in practice people who like power were quite happy to seize the levers of the government and never let them go. Oopsie! As an aside, I strongly recommend Iannucci's The Death of Stalin [1], which is in US theaters right now. The material would be horrific in a serious film, but treating it as a black comedy makes it endurable. I enjoyed it much more than I expected, and the cast is first rate. [1] https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_death_of_stalin/ https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_death_of_stalin/
- Fnoord 8y ago
  FWIW, 88 metascore on Metacritic [1] is solid, high. Steve Buscemi as Nikita Khrushchev! Can't wait. [1] http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-death-of-stalin http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-death-of-stalin
- iguy 8y ago
  The Death of Stalin is great. The fact that some people once wished the word "communist" to mean something else doesn't matter much. Post-1945 it has had a clear meaning: the empire of Stalin, and its vassals, imitators, and admirers. "as envisioned" just means some people once told a fairy tale about how nice things would be. The Heaven's Gate cult also "envisioned" riding to paradise on Comet Hale-Bopp.
niccccccccc 8y ago
You have it wrong. China is a dictatorship that its billionaires are trying to escape, less they get struck down by Xi jingping’s anti corruption drive
- matt_wulfeck 8y ago
  That’s pretty much been the story of all communist countries. Rather than say they’re “doing it wrong”, we should ask ourselves why such methods of government tends to create such destructive environments.

knuththetruth 8y ago

This seems like a strange sentiment when the trajectory of wealth accumulation and power in Capitalists societies track pretty closely with the analysis of Marxism. Unless your saying that all ostensibly communist societies are actually examples of State Capitalism.

jadedhacker 8y ago

I disagree that labels are meaningless. Capitalism is well understood to mean private ownership of the means of production. China is doing a lot of different things and most people understand that.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
If it's so well understood why is everyone including those in power acting is helpless? Even the rich warn about the problems. I don't think things like "money", "capitalism" etc are well understood at all. It may not even be possible because those are very fuzzy terms that describe vastly different things depending on what aspects you are looking at and they consist of >90% context. IMO any discussion waving around any of those words can be safely ignored or engaged in only because one is extremely bored and wants entertainment.
- jadedhacker 8y ago
  That's kind of a confusing line of questioning. People are pointing out problems yes (I often agree with them, I'm a socialist), but that doesn't change the definitions of words. If we muddy the words, we won't even know what we're talking about and that favors the status quo. The remedy for ambiguity is clarity.
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    > the definitions of words. ...is extremely ambiguous, context dependent, variable. Especially for words ending in '-ism'. > The remedy for ambiguity is clarity. Then don't use words from the extreme end of the range of vapor words. Instead, talk about something concrete.

Eric_WVGG 8y ago

And a capitalist society wouldn’t privatize profits but socialize risk.

cmurf 8y ago
Why? What kind of law, or institution, or self-regulation prevents it?

alexanderdmitri 8y ago

This is a very good point. It's like trying to trouble shoot a system failure in a bullet train based on a 19th century document detailing train locomotion.

wpietri 8y ago

Yeah, I'm not sure "communist" was ever a particularly valuable label, in that anything large and nominally communist was more statist or totalitarian oligarchy, just painted red. My understanding is that as envisioned, the state would "wither away", devolving power to the people, but in practice people who like power were quite happy to seize the levers of the government and never let them go. Oopsie! As an aside, I strongly recommend Iannucci's The Death of Stalin [1], which is in US theaters right now. The material would be horrific in a serious film, but treating it as a black comedy makes it endurable. I enjoyed it much more than I expected, and the cast is first rate. [1] https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_death_of_stalin/ https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_death_of_stalin/

Fnoord 8y ago
FWIW, 88 metascore on Metacritic [1] is solid, high. Steve Buscemi as Nikita Khrushchev! Can't wait. [1] http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-death-of-stalin http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-death-of-stalin
iguy 8y ago
The Death of Stalin is great. The fact that some people once wished the word "communist" to mean something else doesn't matter much. Post-1945 it has had a clear meaning: the empire of Stalin, and its vassals, imitators, and admirers. "as envisioned" just means some people once told a fairy tale about how nice things would be. The Heaven's Gate cult also "envisioned" riding to paradise on Comet Hale-Bopp.

niccccccccc 8y ago

You have it wrong. China is a dictatorship that its billionaires are trying to escape, less they get struck down by Xi jingping’s anti corruption drive

matt_wulfeck 8y ago
That’s pretty much been the story of all communist countries. Rather than say they’re “doing it wrong”, we should ask ourselves why such methods of government tends to create such destructive environments.