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‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

163 points by vthallam 9y ago

known 9y ago
Govt should confiscate Nilekani properties to retrieve $1 Billion. https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-in-India-since-its-independence/answer/Adarsh-DeCarde https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-in-India-since-...
firasd 9y ago
As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equivalent of building interstate highways, or that citizens are the biggest beneficiaries. They neglect to mention that the program is mandatory. If people were truly benefiting, they wouldn't need to force everyone to link so many of their life activities with this database--we'd do it voluntarily. During the demonetization disaster of Nov 2016 (in which 86% of the cash value in circulation was deemed unusable overnight), once the problems became clear, the government went on a massive PR spree saying that despite the problems faced by ordinary people, the policy will spur 'digital payments'. 18 months later it's clear that this was a stupid claim--the cash in circulation has matched or exceeded the amount that was demonetized. I wrote about this at the time here but I'm still very upset about what went down and the whole 'ooh this will lead to digital innovation!11' deflection. https://hackernoon.com/i-boycott-paytm-5df93d189356 https://hackernoon.com/i-boycott-paytm-5df93d189356
- 8note 9y ago
  you can't opt out of the interstate highways either. you get stuck with whatever pollution they bring into your neighborhood
- Alterlife 9y ago
  I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government 'servants' are sociopaths. It's a generally accepted fact (with no citation needed) that a non-insignificant portion of government spending on social programs and infrastructure is going un-tracked into private pockets. Secondly, inequality. A lot of people get away with things in politics. Robert Vadra gets through security checks though he's not a diplomat, Modiji (allegedly) gets degrees without going to college and Jayalalitha from my own state had people falling not only at her feet but touching the tires of her car. Aadhaar is the 'leveler' that shines light on the financial activities of all these people. 1. Aadhaar is linked to biometrics = aadhaar is linked to a real person 2. You can't live / work in India without Aadhaar = Government employees and people with influence are not exempt. 3. You can't handle money or avail social benefits from the government in India without linking Aadhaar to it = Illegal money can be tracked. This could solve a lot of problems. Of-course there are problems with this apart from the well publicized privacy issues. You can apparently purchase fake Aadhaar cards for a few hundred rupees. It's been reported that more than one person has bought an Aadhaar card for a pet and if it's that simple to beat the system then all the good intentions fall flat.
  - captn3m0 9y ago
    The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.
    - fooker 9y ago
      That is like saying that the right way to fix bugs is by conducting meetings to grill the programmer. Sure, it can work but it does not scale. If clerks spend all day manually answering RTI queries who will do the work?
- ashwinm 9y ago
  Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.
  - firasd 9y ago
    Yes, I explained the similarities. Aadhaar is a core part of the 'India Stack', which is closely connected to the 'cashless' propaganda during the demonetization disaster. Aadhaar was already flawed as a concept when it was introduced but over the last year there have been sudden mandates to link it to everything. Which makes it far more dangerous. We need to scale it back.
    - ashwinm 9y ago
      Demonentisation has nothing to do with cashless. it was an afterthought. So no connection to Aadhar. So you are no different in making propaganda. Aadhar is here to stay no matter how much fearmongerers whine. It's benefits outweighs risk. A good data protection law is what lacking.
      - thewhitetulip 9y ago
        Of course Adhar is good But the shoving it diwn everyone's throats is a clear form of transforming this democracy into autocracy Adhar is connected to your phone and internet and accounts. So if I make an anti PM statement, suddenly my bank account is frozen, electricity connection is gone (connected to adhar), my frying pan is connected to adhar so if I cook Poha, PM's sycophants can turn it into upma. No tech is bad by its own right, the implementation is good or bad And as far as 2014 implementation goes, adhar is bad
  - middleclick 9y ago
    Did you just make an ad hominem? Allow me to remind you that the current PM who is pushing so hard for Aadhar was against it when opposition because he was worried about the "security".
- Dravidian 9y ago
  Their point of Aadhaar being secure is only based on the data being encrypted with RSA public-key cryptography. They are totally obvilious to other threat vectors. Their specifications state that the vendor should ensure end-to-end encryption. Say vendor X uses a kyc API which follows the UIDAI guidelines to the point, there's nothing preventing the vendor from storing the biometrics on the device before sending it to the kyc. Not to mention that the biometric can be bypassed with OTP SMS & anyone is cybersecurity knowns SMS aren't fool-proof. India is culmination of different civilizations and hence the diversity. No matter how corrupt the previous governments were, they weren't a direct threat to the democracy like the current government is under the pretext of religion.
mindslight 9y ago
> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is the top-down insistence on having everybody cataloged in the first place.
- shripadk 9y ago
  How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer? You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income group were swindled by scamsters who used their identities to procure the benefits. There was no way to ascertain if the individual was really below poverty line and that s/he hadn't taken more than his/her fair share of the benefits using a stolen identity. We can always debate issues of privacy endlessly but arrive at no conclusion which can actually solve the core issues. The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. For some added perspective, here is a famous quote by Ex-Prime Minister of India, Rajiv Gandhi in 1985 (on a visit to drought-affected Kalahandi district, Odisha): "Of every rupee spent by the government, only 15 paise reached the intended beneficiary". Have you ever heard a top executive head of any other country publicly accept and go on record that 85% of the intended amount never reached the poor and needy? That 85% of the amount was swindled away by corrupt means? Even this article admits it rather reluctantly: "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services."
  - haltingproblem 9y ago
    > The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. Privacy is probably not on their radar. However, Aadhaar is an authentication system not a tracking system. So privacy is not even relevant here but please correct me if I am mistaken.
middleclick 9y ago
Something related: it doesn't inspire confidence when the person who runs UIDAI (the government organization running the fingerprint program) says this: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-inch-thick-15-feet-high-walls-centre-to-supreme-court-1826931 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-i... > Aadhaar Data Safe Behind 5 Feet Thick Walls: Centre to Supreme Court This just shows how poor the understanding of digital security is...
- shripadk 9y ago
  That's a biased article and is taking things out of context. A better understanding would be found at the UIDAI page itself: https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27 https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27 To their credit, the leaks that have happened until now haven't happened directly from UIDAI database but by partners who had poorly designed API endpoints which exposed citizen identity data. At the very least, biometric data has never been leaked/hacked into till date. The "5 feet thick walls" reference might be to the vault that is actually housing the biometric dataset which they mention in the above official page as well: "The UID database will be guarded both physically and electronically by a few select individuals with high clearance. It will not be available even for many members of the UID staff and will be secured with the best encryption, and in a highly secure data vault. All access details will be properly logged."
  - captn3m0 9y ago
    As a security researcher in india, Aadhaar is riddled with Security holes that are glaring. There is clear way to report these issues and nothing gets fixed. I've had a possible-RCE vulnerability reported to UIDAI since February-2017 and there has been no action. The CERT-IN (Indian equivalent of CERT-US) has been aware of the issue, but there is no fix in sight. The easiest to do exploits (fingerprint cloning) are already happening: https://www.medianama.com/2018/03/223-cloned-thumb-prints-used-to-spoof-biometrics-and-allow-proxies-to-answer-online-rajasthan-police-exam/ https://www.medianama.com/2018/03/223-cloned-thumb-prints-us...
    - 9y ago
haltingproblem 9y ago
Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever knowing you existed, let alone provide you with services. Things we take for granted in the so-called developed economies e.g. getting a birth certificate, accessing public education, voting rights, drivers license - rely on smaller units of government providing unique identity services which are then chained up the ladder. My local hospital provides a birth certificate which is attested to by the county recorder's office which then serves as proof to get a driving license, passport etc. In a weak state like India, the local entities are thoroughly corrupt. A blue eyed/blond 6.5 foot viking can get a birth certificate in an indian province where most citizens are under 5.5 foot and caramel colored for less than a hundred dollars. So I posit my meta question - how is a nation state supposed to provide unique identity authentication? Aadhaar is a 12 digit random number assigned to everyone by the Unique Identification Authority of India. The project was led by one of the founders of Infosys who ran as a Member of Parliament for the opposition Congress party. Each political party takes potshots at it when they are not in power but it has support across the aisle. From my (albeit limited) understanding, Aadhaar is simply authentication - and not tracking. The intelligentsia in India defines themselves by opposition to Aadhaar. There is a huge cacophony of bollywood stars, writers, intellectuals and of course civil libertarians opposing Aadhaar. What is lost is the colossal leakage (euphemism for corruption) in benefits, the lack of existence of hundreds of millions of citizens and the resulting parasitism of political machines to get them benefits of the old system. Does anyone have anything else in mind that would work better? Or is this simply opposition for opposition sake? (edits for clarity)
- reaperducer 9y ago
  > how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Whether they can pass an ID scan or not. It's one of the reasons why voter ID proposals are so vocally opposed. I am a citizen, just as I am a human being. I do not need to prove it to exist. I didn't even have a Social Security number until I was an adult and wanted to start work. It wasn't until the tax authorities made SSN's mandatory to deduct dependents from your taxes that people started registering their babies at birth. However, in some other nations, people don't think of themselves as citizens unless they have the blessing of their government in the form of a document or a registration number. Americans look at the Soviet Union, and other failed states and worry about what happens when a particular group of people falls out of favor and can be disenfranchised with the click of a button.
thisisit 9y ago
This article gives a good overview of the promises and issues of the Aadhar system. I might be wrong but it doesn't add anything new which hasn't been covered in other Aadhar related articles submitted earlier. The system has done some good. Mostly in the public schemes area where it was originally intended to stop corruption. But, there are some serious issues with the system. First is the internet infrastructure. As mentioned in the article, a lady had to register for it thrice because the system wouldn't load the data. That doesn't surprise me a bit because the internet infrastructure is so poor that even 512kbps is defined as "broadband". There is a funny interview of a supposed Income Tax guy: https://youtu.be/AnxrJiS5uKU?t=135 https://youtu.be/AnxrJiS5uKU?t=135 He equates "cloud computing" to actual clouds. And posits that if people's data in put in cloud and rains then the person is screwed out of his benefits. As stupid as it sounds, over reliance on Aadhar means people might not get their benefits if the Aadhar system is down. And given the poor internet infrastructure, that is a real concern. Second is the creeping coverage. The system is slowly outgrowing is intended usage from public schemes to invading into private lives. Now telephones and banks need the data. It was promised that the data will never be used for forensics. But given the data stash, it is not stopping lower courts from trying to access it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- nsenifty 9y ago
  > There is a funny interview of a supposed Income Tax guy: That's just a wrong example. He was not an officer in the government at the time of the interview. He worked for the tax department long before cloud computing was even popular.
- captn3m0 9y ago
  As hilarious as that video is, it is quite out of context in a Aadhaar discussion. If someone is interested in issues with aadhaar,the rethink aadhaar website has a nice FAQ[0] [0]: https://rethinkaadhaar.in/faqs/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/faqs/
- intended 9y ago
  Hey if you have an article showing that Aadhar has done good, please share. Most of the Aadhar numbers are disputed and many cases they made straight up fraudulent or ambiguous claims.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
thetruthseeker1 9y ago
I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distributed because there are scams where a person claims to be somebody else or there is no clear identification system, all of this significantly affect the GDP and the rate at which people’s std of life is improved. I think if it gets misused , then the solution to that is regulation and better management, not no collection.
- Zak 9y ago
  I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.
  - 8note 9y ago
    are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.
    - selimthegrim 9y ago
      Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.
  - shripadk 9y ago
    > Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.
cornholio 9y ago
I understand the need for identification - ID documents long predate these systems and include basic biometric data: photograph, eye and hair color, and sometimes even a finger imprint. In the digital era, ID cards can be made unforgeable and the biometric data can be encrypted and made available only to pre-authorized entities (I.e airport biometric gates) What I don't understand is why they aim to replace the ID card, a smart, cheap hardware token that can be interfaced with very simple hardware, with a monstruos system where the fingerprint itself is the authentication device. Now you need complex, finicky machines to read fingerprints and irises/faces whenever you want to do authentication and also require internet connectivity all the time; it's no longer possible to do the low tech, offline validation "ID is present, appears not forged on visual inspection and photograph matches holder". This was usually suficient in 95% of the usecases. You also lose on end to end security: if fingerprint data is duplicated, a rogue acces point can fake authentication, despite the fact that neither the govt nor the person wants that. And once the fingerprint is compromised, it stays that way forever, maybe even putting the original owner on various blacklists. So instead of going for the low hanging fruit and build a solid electronic ID system where optional biometrics can add some value and also be protected, they overextended to a snake oil system that is actually worse in every way. A cautionary tale for government security purchases and probably the very corruption it purports to address.
bigphishy 9y ago
Given the title and article is sensationalized, does anyone else see that the greater reliance organizations and govnts put on mass-production of homogeneous survellience technology, the easier it will be to abuse, and the harder it will be to be detected. A double-edge sword it is.
- captn3m0 9y ago
  It is worse in India because we have a large amount of surveillance abuse (even before the internet) and very little litigation/laws to make up for it. And now we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_NETRA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_NETRA (India's version of PRISM)
  - bigphishy 9y ago
    Someting tells me I have it in good faith the population of Indians will improve things drastically and will come out on top when all is said and done. Any way, I'm shocked Indian do not use their own version of f*book. India, you guys have got to get on that!
kelnos 9y ago
> Technology has given governments around the world new tools to monitor their citizens. This is the fundamental thing that really gets to me. Governments do not need to monitor their citizens! In fact that very concept is anathema to a free society. I really wish people would get this and stop trotting out the usual "oh but terrorists!" type arguments. Pervasive monitoring destroys your way of life faster than any terrorist (or other justification du jour) could.
tictok4 9y ago
Indians and Chinese come over to the US in large numbers. Any surprise when tech workers here support/implement these totalitarian products in the USA?
navinsylvester 9y ago
Why Aadhaar[1] is evil: #1 Aadhaar has been foisted on us under false pretenses. #2 It is useless. #3 It is destroying the lives of the poor. #4 It is coercive. #5 It is technically unreliable. #6 It is insecure. #7 It puts sensitive data into unreliable hands. #8 It is creating the infrastructure for 24×7 surveillance. #9 It is allowing privileged insiders to profit from personal data. #10 It frees the government from accountability. Read more about the above points: https://sabrangindia.in/article/say-no-aadhar-%E2%80%93-sign-petition https://sabrangindia.in/article/say-no-aadhar-%E2%80%93-sign... Register your protest against aadhaar here: https://www.speakforme.in/mp/?lang=en https://www.speakforme.in/mp/?lang=en
- newyankee 9y ago
  I do not know about other points and there may be rings of truth to all the issues but #2 and #3 are definitely false.
  - intended 9y ago
    No number 3 is true. In many places people are being denied access to their rights because of authentication failures. Its come up in the SC case and in the news.
  - goombastic 9y ago
    Not really. There are actual deaths on the ground with desperately hungry people being denied benefits due to the bio-metric authentication systems flaking out. So much so that the CEO of the agency managing this system himself has an authentication failure rate of around 19%. Thankfully he doesn't need the ration to survive.
enugu 9y ago
Leaving this issue aside for a moment, dealing with massive corruption in the govt requires an opposite approach - monitoring the government. Publicly available data which allows any citizen to lookup the details of the programs running in their locality, apps which allow public audits of quality of service of roads etc.
jitix 9y ago
Most people commenting here don't get the situation in India. We elected a radical leader with a dictatorial behavior and this is why: 1. The old govt was descended from a long line of political dynasty known for inaction and corruption. 2. Election fraud! Mine and my family members names were already voted for by members of the incumbent party when we reached the voting booth in 2014. And the election officer sipping tea at that party's booth said he couldn't do anything. As my mom explained, this wasn't the first time this happened to her. My father as an election officer was sent off to a remote place so he couldn't do anything. It was shocking to me! 3. There's real infrastructure development. The roads don't have potholes anymore, they are noticeably cleaner and I was almost ticketed for throwing trash on the road last time I visited. 4. We know the risk of what's happening but this is the best choice we've got. The other political leaders are/were directly involved in scams. 5. The govt is pro-middle class tax paying people. We work hard and pay taxes and we deserve our own guy in charge for a change. The previous govts' direct welfare schemes have failed for 70+ years. We should try trickle down economy for a while. Our maids, drivers, etc have noticeably grown richer with general wage rise in cities. If the super rich also profit from it then its good for them too.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- goombastic 9y ago
  This reads like propaganda.
known 9y ago
"In democracy it's your vote in elections that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes" --Jallberg http://m.timesofindia.com/india/China-mocks-Indias-democratic-system/articleshow/46543509.cms http://m.timesofindia.com/india/China-mocks-Indias-democrati...
known 9y ago
Indian govt priorities are screwed due to the hegemony of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority

163 points by vthallam 9y ago

Govt should confiscate Nilekani properties to retrieve $1 Billion. https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-in-India-since-its-independence/answer/Adarsh-DeCarde https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-in-India-since-...

firasd 9y ago

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equivalent of building interstate highways, or that citizens are the biggest beneficiaries. They neglect to mention that the program is mandatory. If people were truly benefiting, they wouldn't need to force everyone to link so many of their life activities with this database--we'd do it voluntarily. During the demonetization disaster of Nov 2016 (in which 86% of the cash value in circulation was deemed unusable overnight), once the problems became clear, the government went on a massive PR spree saying that despite the problems faced by ordinary people, the policy will spur 'digital payments'. 18 months later it's clear that this was a stupid claim--the cash in circulation has matched or exceeded the amount that was demonetized. I wrote about this at the time here but I'm still very upset about what went down and the whole 'ooh this will lead to digital innovation!11' deflection. https://hackernoon.com/i-boycott-paytm-5df93d189356 https://hackernoon.com/i-boycott-paytm-5df93d189356

8note 9y ago
you can't opt out of the interstate highways either. you get stuck with whatever pollution they bring into your neighborhood
Alterlife 9y ago
I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government 'servants' are sociopaths. It's a generally accepted fact (with no citation needed) that a non-insignificant portion of government spending on social programs and infrastructure is going un-tracked into private pockets. Secondly, inequality. A lot of people get away with things in politics. Robert Vadra gets through security checks though he's not a diplomat, Modiji (allegedly) gets degrees without going to college and Jayalalitha from my own state had people falling not only at her feet but touching the tires of her car. Aadhaar is the 'leveler' that shines light on the financial activities of all these people. 1. Aadhaar is linked to biometrics = aadhaar is linked to a real person 2. You can't live / work in India without Aadhaar = Government employees and people with influence are not exempt. 3. You can't handle money or avail social benefits from the government in India without linking Aadhaar to it = Illegal money can be tracked. This could solve a lot of problems. Of-course there are problems with this apart from the well publicized privacy issues. You can apparently purchase fake Aadhaar cards for a few hundred rupees. It's been reported that more than one person has bought an Aadhaar card for a pet and if it's that simple to beat the system then all the good intentions fall flat.
- captn3m0 9y ago
  The right way to fix corruption is to make the state transparent - RTI was a right step in this direction. Opening up the citizen to the state feels like progress, but isn't really.
  - fooker 9y ago
    That is like saying that the right way to fix bugs is by conducting meetings to grill the programmer. Sure, it can work but it does not scale. If clerks spend all day manually answering RTI queries who will do the work?
ashwinm 9y ago
Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.
- firasd 9y ago
  Yes, I explained the similarities. Aadhaar is a core part of the 'India Stack', which is closely connected to the 'cashless' propaganda during the demonetization disaster. Aadhaar was already flawed as a concept when it was introduced but over the last year there have been sudden mandates to link it to everything. Which makes it far more dangerous. We need to scale it back.
  - ashwinm 9y ago
    Demonentisation has nothing to do with cashless. it was an afterthought. So no connection to Aadhar. So you are no different in making propaganda. Aadhar is here to stay no matter how much fearmongerers whine. It's benefits outweighs risk. A good data protection law is what lacking.
    - thewhitetulip 9y ago
      Of course Adhar is good But the shoving it diwn everyone's throats is a clear form of transforming this democracy into autocracy Adhar is connected to your phone and internet and accounts. So if I make an anti PM statement, suddenly my bank account is frozen, electricity connection is gone (connected to adhar), my frying pan is connected to adhar so if I cook Poha, PM's sycophants can turn it into upma. No tech is bad by its own right, the implementation is good or bad And as far as 2014 implementation goes, adhar is bad
- middleclick 9y ago
  Did you just make an ad hominem? Allow me to remind you that the current PM who is pushing so hard for Aadhar was against it when opposition because he was worried about the "security".
Dravidian 9y ago
Their point of Aadhaar being secure is only based on the data being encrypted with RSA public-key cryptography. They are totally obvilious to other threat vectors. Their specifications state that the vendor should ensure end-to-end encryption. Say vendor X uses a kyc API which follows the UIDAI guidelines to the point, there's nothing preventing the vendor from storing the biometrics on the device before sending it to the kyc. Not to mention that the biometric can be bypassed with OTP SMS & anyone is cybersecurity knowns SMS aren't fool-proof. India is culmination of different civilizations and hence the diversity. No matter how corrupt the previous governments were, they weren't a direct threat to the democracy like the current government is under the pretext of religion.

mindslight 9y ago

> "If you are not able to prove your identity, you are disenfranchised," he said. "You have no existence." This is so fucking disingenuous, and really demonstrates the heart of the problem. If you create a bunch of systems that rely on totalitarian cataloging of humans for their basics of every day life, then when some individuals aren't tracked it sure looks like those individuals' problem. But really the problem is the top-down insistence on having everybody cataloged in the first place.

shripadk 9y ago
How do you efficiently distribute benefits if you cannot ascertain if the individual is a Citizen, hasn't already taken his/her fair share or isn't scamming the exchequer? You may disagree with the idea but in a country which has a very small tax base and caters to a huge population efficiently distributing benefits becomes the most important priority. Up until Aadhaar, the benefits meant for illiterate/lower income group were swindled by scamsters who used their identities to procure the benefits. There was no way to ascertain if the individual was really below poverty line and that s/he hadn't taken more than his/her fair share of the benefits using a stolen identity. We can always debate issues of privacy endlessly but arrive at no conclusion which can actually solve the core issues. The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. For some added perspective, here is a famous quote by Ex-Prime Minister of India, Rajiv Gandhi in 1985 (on a visit to drought-affected Kalahandi district, Odisha): "Of every rupee spent by the government, only 15 paise reached the intended beneficiary". Have you ever heard a top executive head of any other country publicly accept and go on record that 85% of the intended amount never reached the poor and needy? That 85% of the amount was swindled away by corrupt means? Even this article admits it rather reluctantly: "Officials estimate that taxpayers have saved at least $9.4 billion from Aadhaar by weeding out “ghosts” and other improper beneficiaries of government services."
- haltingproblem 9y ago
  > The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. Privacy is probably not on their radar. However, Aadhaar is an authentication system not a tracking system. So privacy is not even relevant here but please correct me if I am mistaken.

middleclick 9y ago

Something related: it doesn't inspire confidence when the person who runs UIDAI (the government organization running the fingerprint program) says this: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-inch-thick-15-feet-high-walls-centre-to-supreme-court-1826931 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/aadhaar-data-safe-behind-5-i... > Aadhaar Data Safe Behind 5 Feet Thick Walls: Centre to Supreme Court This just shows how poor the understanding of digital security is...

shripadk 9y ago
That's a biased article and is taking things out of context. A better understanding would be found at the UIDAI page itself: https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27 https://uidai.gov.in/component/fsf/?view=faq&catid=27 To their credit, the leaks that have happened until now haven't happened directly from UIDAI database but by partners who had poorly designed API endpoints which exposed citizen identity data. At the very least, biometric data has never been leaked/hacked into till date. The "5 feet thick walls" reference might be to the vault that is actually housing the biometric dataset which they mention in the above official page as well: "The UID database will be guarded both physically and electronically by a few select individuals with high clearance. It will not be available even for many members of the UID staff and will be secured with the best encryption, and in a highly secure data vault. All access details will be properly logged."
- captn3m0 9y ago
  As a security researcher in india, Aadhaar is riddled with Security holes that are glaring. There is clear way to report these issues and nothing gets fixed. I've had a possible-RCE vulnerability reported to UIDAI since February-2017 and there has been no action. The CERT-IN (Indian equivalent of CERT-US) has been aware of the issue, but there is no fix in sight. The easiest to do exploits (fingerprint cloning) are already happening: https://www.medianama.com/2018/03/223-cloned-thumb-prints-used-to-spoof-biometrics-and-allow-proxies-to-answer-online-rajasthan-police-exam/ https://www.medianama.com/2018/03/223-cloned-thumb-prints-us...
  - 9y ago

haltingproblem 9y ago

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever knowing you existed, let alone provide you with services. Things we take for granted in the so-called developed economies e.g. getting a birth certificate, accessing public education, voting rights, drivers license - rely on smaller units of government providing unique identity services which are then chained up the ladder. My local hospital provides a birth certificate which is attested to by the county recorder's office which then serves as proof to get a driving license, passport etc. In a weak state like India, the local entities are thoroughly corrupt. A blue eyed/blond 6.5 foot viking can get a birth certificate in an indian province where most citizens are under 5.5 foot and caramel colored for less than a hundred dollars. So I posit my meta question - how is a nation state supposed to provide unique identity authentication? Aadhaar is a 12 digit random number assigned to everyone by the Unique Identification Authority of India. The project was led by one of the founders of Infosys who ran as a Member of Parliament for the opposition Congress party. Each political party takes potshots at it when they are not in power but it has support across the aisle. From my (albeit limited) understanding, Aadhaar is simply authentication - and not tracking. The intelligentsia in India defines themselves by opposition to Aadhaar. There is a huge cacophony of bollywood stars, writers, intellectuals and of course civil libertarians opposing Aadhaar. What is lost is the colossal leakage (euphemism for corruption) in benefits, the lack of existence of hundreds of millions of citizens and the resulting parasitism of political machines to get them benefits of the old system. Does anyone have anything else in mind that would work better? Or is this simply opposition for opposition sake? (edits for clarity)

reaperducer 9y ago
> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. Are they, really? It's not like the government is buying people cars. They're handing out food to starving children. If people are hungry, give them food. Don't make them jump through hoops for it. Perhaps my problem is that I see it as an American. Americans are citizens of their country whether they can prove it or not. Whether they can pass an ID scan or not. It's one of the reasons why voter ID proposals are so vocally opposed. I am a citizen, just as I am a human being. I do not need to prove it to exist. I didn't even have a Social Security number until I was an adult and wanted to start work. It wasn't until the tax authorities made SSN's mandatory to deduct dependents from your taxes that people started registering their babies at birth. However, in some other nations, people don't think of themselves as citizens unless they have the blessing of their government in the form of a document or a registration number. Americans look at the Soviet Union, and other failed states and worry about what happens when a particular group of people falls out of favor and can be disenfranchised with the click of a button.

thisisit 9y ago

This article gives a good overview of the promises and issues of the Aadhar system. I might be wrong but it doesn't add anything new which hasn't been covered in other Aadhar related articles submitted earlier. The system has done some good. Mostly in the public schemes area where it was originally intended to stop corruption. But, there are some serious issues with the system. First is the internet infrastructure. As mentioned in the article, a lady had to register for it thrice because the system wouldn't load the data. That doesn't surprise me a bit because the internet infrastructure is so poor that even 512kbps is defined as "broadband". There is a funny interview of a supposed Income Tax guy: https://youtu.be/AnxrJiS5uKU?t=135 https://youtu.be/AnxrJiS5uKU?t=135 He equates "cloud computing" to actual clouds. And posits that if people's data in put in cloud and rains then the person is screwed out of his benefits. As stupid as it sounds, over reliance on Aadhar means people might not get their benefits if the Aadhar system is down. And given the poor internet infrastructure, that is a real concern. Second is the creeping coverage. The system is slowly outgrowing is intended usage from public schemes to invading into private lives. Now telephones and banks need the data. It was promised that the data will never be used for forensics. But given the data stash, it is not stopping lower courts from trying to access it.

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nsenifty 9y ago
> There is a funny interview of a supposed Income Tax guy: That's just a wrong example. He was not an officer in the government at the time of the interview. He worked for the tax department long before cloud computing was even popular.
captn3m0 9y ago
As hilarious as that video is, it is quite out of context in a Aadhaar discussion. If someone is interested in issues with aadhaar,the rethink aadhaar website has a nice FAQ[0] [0]: https://rethinkaadhaar.in/faqs/ https://rethinkaadhaar.in/faqs/
intended 9y ago
Hey if you have an article showing that Aadhar has done good, please share. Most of the Aadhar numbers are disputed and many cases they made straight up fraudulent or ambiguous claims.

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thetruthseeker1 9y ago

I disagree with the assessment. It seems like any form in which the government tries to identify you is being compared to the scary Orwellian dystopia. There is no cost benefit analysis. Sure it could be misused, however it can also be used in a super beneficial way. India is a country where some Indians have never obatained birth certificates, there was no equivalent SSN system, often resources are poorly distributed because there are scams where a person claims to be somebody else or there is no clear identification system, all of this significantly affect the GDP and the rate at which people’s std of life is improved. I think if it gets misused , then the solution to that is regulation and better management, not no collection.

Zak 9y ago
I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card.
- 8note 9y ago
  are those really orwellian though? they could make an orwellian system on top of it where they destroy government IDs to unperson you, but in and of itself, those aren't very orwellian.
  - selimthegrim 9y ago
    Given what’s going on with the population register in Assam and certain groups right now, this is not a groundless fear at all.
- shripadk 9y ago
  > Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. Possibly a security measure? Schools are increasingly becoming targets for anti social elements of late. I wouldn't be surprised if the public, on its own volition, pressurizes the government to have stringent security checks in schools. > Requiring a government ID to buy a prepaid SIM card. You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. That would put huge liability on the government if tomorrow you claim that the number never belonged to you. Biometric scanners are not ubiquitous, so the need for linking SIM cards for authentication.

cornholio 9y ago

I understand the need for identification - ID documents long predate these systems and include basic biometric data: photograph, eye and hair color, and sometimes even a finger imprint. In the digital era, ID cards can be made unforgeable and the biometric data can be encrypted and made available only to pre-authorized entities (I.e airport biometric gates) What I don't understand is why they aim to replace the ID card, a smart, cheap hardware token that can be interfaced with very simple hardware, with a monstruos system where the fingerprint itself is the authentication device. Now you need complex, finicky machines to read fingerprints and irises/faces whenever you want to do authentication and also require internet connectivity all the time; it's no longer possible to do the low tech, offline validation "ID is present, appears not forged on visual inspection and photograph matches holder". This was usually suficient in 95% of the usecases. You also lose on end to end security: if fingerprint data is duplicated, a rogue acces point can fake authentication, despite the fact that neither the govt nor the person wants that. And once the fingerprint is compromised, it stays that way forever, maybe even putting the original owner on various blacklists. So instead of going for the low hanging fruit and build a solid electronic ID system where optional biometrics can add some value and also be protected, they overextended to a snake oil system that is actually worse in every way. A cautionary tale for government security purchases and probably the very corruption it purports to address.

bigphishy 9y ago

Given the title and article is sensationalized, does anyone else see that the greater reliance organizations and govnts put on mass-production of homogeneous survellience technology, the easier it will be to abuse, and the harder it will be to be detected. A double-edge sword it is.

captn3m0 9y ago
It is worse in India because we have a large amount of surveillance abuse (even before the internet) and very little litigation/laws to make up for it. And now we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_NETRA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_NETRA (India's version of PRISM)
- bigphishy 9y ago
  Someting tells me I have it in good faith the population of Indians will improve things drastically and will come out on top when all is said and done. Any way, I'm shocked Indian do not use their own version of f*book. India, you guys have got to get on that!

kelnos 9y ago

> Technology has given governments around the world new tools to monitor their citizens. This is the fundamental thing that really gets to me. Governments do not need to monitor their citizens! In fact that very concept is anathema to a free society. I really wish people would get this and stop trotting out the usual "oh but terrorists!" type arguments. Pervasive monitoring destroys your way of life faster than any terrorist (or other justification du jour) could.

tictok4 9y ago

Indians and Chinese come over to the US in large numbers. Any surprise when tech workers here support/implement these totalitarian products in the USA?

navinsylvester 9y ago

Why Aadhaar[1] is evil: #1 Aadhaar has been foisted on us under false pretenses. #2 It is useless. #3 It is destroying the lives of the poor. #4 It is coercive. #5 It is technically unreliable. #6 It is insecure. #7 It puts sensitive data into unreliable hands. #8 It is creating the infrastructure for 24×7 surveillance. #9 It is allowing privileged insiders to profit from personal data. #10 It frees the government from accountability. Read more about the above points: https://sabrangindia.in/article/say-no-aadhar-%E2%80%93-sign-petition https://sabrangindia.in/article/say-no-aadhar-%E2%80%93-sign... Register your protest against aadhaar here: https://www.speakforme.in/mp/?lang=en https://www.speakforme.in/mp/?lang=en

newyankee 9y ago
I do not know about other points and there may be rings of truth to all the issues but #2 and #3 are definitely false.
- intended 9y ago
  No number 3 is true. In many places people are being denied access to their rights because of authentication failures. Its come up in the SC case and in the news.
- goombastic 9y ago
  Not really. There are actual deaths on the ground with desperately hungry people being denied benefits due to the bio-metric authentication systems flaking out. So much so that the CEO of the agency managing this system himself has an authentication failure rate of around 19%. Thankfully he doesn't need the ration to survive.

enugu 9y ago

Leaving this issue aside for a moment, dealing with massive corruption in the govt requires an opposite approach - monitoring the government. Publicly available data which allows any citizen to lookup the details of the programs running in their locality, apps which allow public audits of quality of service of roads etc.

jitix 9y ago

Most people commenting here don't get the situation in India. We elected a radical leader with a dictatorial behavior and this is why: 1. The old govt was descended from a long line of political dynasty known for inaction and corruption. 2. Election fraud! Mine and my family members names were already voted for by members of the incumbent party when we reached the voting booth in 2014. And the election officer sipping tea at that party's booth said he couldn't do anything. As my mom explained, this wasn't the first time this happened to her. My father as an election officer was sent off to a remote place so he couldn't do anything. It was shocking to me! 3. There's real infrastructure development. The roads don't have potholes anymore, they are noticeably cleaner and I was almost ticketed for throwing trash on the road last time I visited. 4. We know the risk of what's happening but this is the best choice we've got. The other political leaders are/were directly involved in scams. 5. The govt is pro-middle class tax paying people. We work hard and pay taxes and we deserve our own guy in charge for a change. The previous govts' direct welfare schemes have failed for 70+ years. We should try trickle down economy for a while. Our maids, drivers, etc have noticeably grown richer with general wage rise in cities. If the super rich also profit from it then its good for them too.

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goombastic 9y ago
This reads like propaganda.

known 9y ago

"In democracy it's your vote in elections that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes" --Jallberg http://m.timesofindia.com/india/China-mocks-Indias-democratic-system/articleshow/46543509.cms http://m.timesofindia.com/india/China-mocks-Indias-democrati...

known 9y ago

Indian govt priorities are screwed due to the hegemony of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority