4 ms·

> HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way to create something that's more than the sum of their parts. No, not really. The wa

> HashCash, ECC, Merkle trees etc... Just combined together in a clever way to create something that's more than the sum of their parts. No, not really. The way proof-of-work is used is nothing like in HashCash (more generally known as a time lock puzzle), the solution to a decentralized clock is the one piece that is new. In the paper it is referred to as "Timestamp Server". Everything else is previously known tech, but the clock piece is an invention, the invention that made it all possible.

simias 9y ago
What I meant is that this decentralized clock is an emergent property from the use of these various algorithms. The code is actually HashCash, just used in a way that creates a new side-effect. The Time Server is not an algorithm, it's a side effect. I agree that it's a bit subjective though.
- gtrubetskoy 9y ago
  Well - the way you describe it is it's like Satoshi used a bread knife to cut something other than bread, but it's more like he used it as an antenna. He is exploiting a feature of HashCash that Adam Back (who invented it) didn't even know existed. It has to do with multiple participants solving the same timelock puzzle in parallel and some very interesting stuff happens then - you should read the link I posted (I take it you have not read it), I think it does a fair job of explaining how incredibly clever it is.
  - simias 9y ago
    But we're in complete agreement and that's my point, he took something (HashCash) and found out that it could be used for something it wasn't meant to. That's what's so clever about it. It's not like inventing elliptic curve cryptography designing the first internal combustion engine, it's taking something and realizing that it could be a lot more. It's not using a bread knife to cut something else, it's using a bread knife to create a more efficient battery. Or like using sleep as a sorting algorithm or figuring out that you could abuse the floating point representation to compute an inverse square root without actually having to compute a square root. I'm not trying to diminish the discovery, it's quite the contrary, I think its simplicity and elegance is what makes it so impressive. It's a very elegant solution to a very complex problem and you could explain it in a few minute to somebody with the right technical background.
dnautics 9y ago
I think also important is that there are exploits that break the existing system (e.g. 50% attack) but it's not in the financial interest of any given actor to exploit it. Part of the algorithm is economic.
- webmaven 9y ago
  Not all interests are financial, so unfortunately, there IS a class of actor with an incentive to exploit it. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ That class of actor can even potentially avoid the financial sunk costs that would ordinarily be required, although that in turn would require the use of several zero-day exploits and/or the use of similarly high-value resources usually available only to state-level actors. Still, under certain circumstances I could see something along these lines being the opening move in World War IV (not to be overly dramatic or anything). Or perhaps a much smaller conflict, should any state be foolish enough to standardize on a national cryptocurrency of their own creation for internal use.

simias 9y ago

What I meant is that this decentralized clock is an emergent property from the use of these various algorithms. The code is actually HashCash, just used in a way that creates a new side-effect. The Time Server is not an algorithm, it's a side effect. I agree that it's a bit subjective though.

gtrubetskoy 9y ago
Well - the way you describe it is it's like Satoshi used a bread knife to cut something other than bread, but it's more like he used it as an antenna. He is exploiting a feature of HashCash that Adam Back (who invented it) didn't even know existed. It has to do with multiple participants solving the same timelock puzzle in parallel and some very interesting stuff happens then - you should read the link I posted (I take it you have not read it), I think it does a fair job of explaining how incredibly clever it is.
- simias 9y ago
  But we're in complete agreement and that's my point, he took something (HashCash) and found out that it could be used for something it wasn't meant to. That's what's so clever about it. It's not like inventing elliptic curve cryptography designing the first internal combustion engine, it's taking something and realizing that it could be a lot more. It's not using a bread knife to cut something else, it's using a bread knife to create a more efficient battery. Or like using sleep as a sorting algorithm or figuring out that you could abuse the floating point representation to compute an inverse square root without actually having to compute a square root. I'm not trying to diminish the discovery, it's quite the contrary, I think its simplicity and elegance is what makes it so impressive. It's a very elegant solution to a very complex problem and you could explain it in a few minute to somebody with the right technical background.

dnautics 9y ago

I think also important is that there are exploits that break the existing system (e.g. 50% attack) but it's not in the financial interest of any given actor to exploit it. Part of the algorithm is economic.

webmaven 9y ago
Not all interests are financial, so unfortunately, there IS a class of actor with an incentive to exploit it. (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ That class of actor can even potentially avoid the financial sunk costs that would ordinarily be required, although that in turn would require the use of several zero-day exploits and/or the use of similarly high-value resources usually available only to state-level actors. Still, under certain circumstances I could see something along these lines being the opening move in World War IV (not to be overly dramatic or anything). Or perhaps a much smaller conflict, should any state be foolish enough to standardize on a national cryptocurrency of their own creation for internal use.