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> Venmo is a free service to transfer dollars, and bitcoin transfers are not free Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding. > Blockchain-based trus

by cowpig 9y ago

> Venmo is a free service to transfer dollars, and bitcoin transfers are not free Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding. > Blockchain-based trustworthiness falls apart in practice... The particular brand of trustworthiness the author is arguing against is indeed a myth, but that doesn't mean blockchain is "crappy technology" or "a bad vision for the future" Blockchain adds a new thing to the world: digital property that cannot be reproduced for free. Smart contracts add another new thing to the world: the ability to build immutable software that interacts directly with the financial system. Both of these ideas are very powerful, and almost all of the interesting blockchain projects are still in the R&D phase. The hype around blockchain is ridiculous and absurd, but that doesn't mean the technology isn't exciting or potentially transformative. edit: I actually wrote an article about the "trustlessness" thing: http://cowpig.github.io/bitcoin/ethereum/poker/cryptocurrency/trust/economics/game-theory/2018/01/29/Trustless-Myth/ http://cowpig.github.io/bitcoin/ethereum/poker/cryptocurrenc...

landryraccoon 9y ago
> Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding. What's that now?
- gshulegaard 9y ago
  * 3% fee for processing credit cards * Platform play where the first stage is to amass users and then use that audience to sell to businesses (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/venmo-makes-money-banks/533946/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/venmo-m...) And I always assumed that the short delay for transferring money out of Venmo allowed them to eek a small margin against the time value of money somewhat similar to Robinhood (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/020515/how-robinhood-makes-money.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/020515/...)...but I don't know for sure.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    It is a lot easier to avoid paying a fee on Venmo than it is to use a cryptocurrency to send money to someone: just don't use a credit card.
    - nwah1 9y ago
      And credit cards are not currency, they are instruments of debt. Debts carry a risk of default. Thus comparing credit card fees to currency transfer fees is not apples-to-apples. Comparing bitcoin to the cost of writing a check is apples-to-apples.
    - mr_spothawk 9y ago
      this is absolutely untrue. Venmo requires a bank account, and presumably some proof of citizenship, to have been setup far ahead of the point at which "money" goes into or comes out of Venmo.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        Gajillions of people send money to each other on Venmo, to the point where my parents know what it is. You can't say that about Bitcoin. QED.
        sudoke 9y ago
        Even more people give each other cash for stuff, to the point where my GRANDparents know what it is. you can't say that about venmo. QED.
    - gshulegaard 9y ago
      I think you are taking my response as in the context of Bitcoin. It's not. It was outlining the ways Venmo makes or seeks to make money. Some of which could be considered hidden costs to the user (e.g. transfer delays and the associated opportunity cost/time value of money). I did not mean to make an implication about crytpocurrencies one way or the other.
    - proofofmoon 9y ago
spookthesunset 9y ago
> digital property that cannot be reproduced for free. Sure, all through the magic of using a medium sized country's worth of electricity.... > Smart contracts add another new thing to the world: the ability to build immutable software that interacts directly with the financial system. "Immutable" as in "immutable up until the folks at the top decide to alter history to benefit themselves financially". See also - Ethereum & The DAO. > and almost all of the interesting blockchain projects are still in the R&D phase. Bitcoin is more than 10 years old. It is a mature tech that is still in search of a problem.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  >> digital property that cannot be reproduced for free. > Sure, all through the magic of using a medium sized country's worth of electricity.... Exactly. Also, I'd question if having more kinds of "property that cannot be reproduced for free" is a good thing. We have plenty of that already. The world becomes better as more things can be reproduced cheaper.
  - dorgo 9y ago
    It's like saying free/easy dollar reproduction would make the world better.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      No. You can't eat replicated dollars. But you could eat replicated food, wear replicated clothes or drive a replicated car.
- mpfundstein 9y ago
  Bitcoin solves a problem. Ever used a dark web market. Good luck with Paypal
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    If the problem it solves is "I need a way to buy illegal drugs, weapons, and fake IDs while evading the police," I think you can see obvious problems to mass-market adoption. I also wonder whether a system with a permanent, publicly accessible ledger is truly ideal for this application.
tCfD 9y ago
> cannot be reproduced for free Only if you opt into the particular set of constraints that define what that property is (as set forth in the base of protocol code most commonly used to define it). If you don't, as innumerable forks of Bitcoin have demonstrated, you certainly can reproduce it for free. I suspect there is a hypothesis of "property" at work here that is being subject to some very privileged and Protean interpretations.
- dorgo 9y ago
  Sure. You can print your own money for free and call it FakeDollar. Nobody will confuse it with the real thing
  - dragontamer 9y ago
    You mean TetherCoin? Which some people are actually treating like US Dollars for some insane reason?
calibas 9y ago
Seems to me that there's this bipolar relationship with blockchain, and now that the manic period is over, we're going into depression. Instead of being this magic solution to all these problems, now it's some hideous failure, and I think both viewpoints don't really see blockchain for what it is. If you're a journalist, now is the time to be extremely critical of blockchain and cryptocurrencies if you want some easy popularity.

by cowpig 9y ago

landryraccoon 9y ago

> Venmo is not free. There's a cost, it's just hiding. What's that now?

gshulegaard 9y ago
* 3% fee for processing credit cards * Platform play where the first stage is to amass users and then use that audience to sell to businesses (https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/venmo-makes-money-banks/533946/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/venmo-m...) And I always assumed that the short delay for transferring money out of Venmo allowed them to eek a small margin against the time value of money somewhat similar to Robinhood (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/020515/how-robinhood-makes-money.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/020515/...)...but I don't know for sure.
- tptacek 9y ago
  It is a lot easier to avoid paying a fee on Venmo than it is to use a cryptocurrency to send money to someone: just don't use a credit card.
  - nwah1 9y ago
    And credit cards are not currency, they are instruments of debt. Debts carry a risk of default. Thus comparing credit card fees to currency transfer fees is not apples-to-apples. Comparing bitcoin to the cost of writing a check is apples-to-apples.
  - mr_spothawk 9y ago
    this is absolutely untrue. Venmo requires a bank account, and presumably some proof of citizenship, to have been setup far ahead of the point at which "money" goes into or comes out of Venmo.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Gajillions of people send money to each other on Venmo, to the point where my parents know what it is. You can't say that about Bitcoin. QED.
      - sudoke 9y ago
        Even more people give each other cash for stuff, to the point where my GRANDparents know what it is. you can't say that about venmo. QED.
  - gshulegaard 9y ago
    I think you are taking my response as in the context of Bitcoin. It's not. It was outlining the ways Venmo makes or seeks to make money. Some of which could be considered hidden costs to the user (e.g. transfer delays and the associated opportunity cost/time value of money). I did not mean to make an implication about crytpocurrencies one way or the other.
  - proofofmoon 9y ago

spookthesunset 9y ago

> digital property that cannot be reproduced for free. Sure, all through the magic of using a medium sized country's worth of electricity.... > Smart contracts add another new thing to the world: the ability to build immutable software that interacts directly with the financial system. "Immutable" as in "immutable up until the folks at the top decide to alter history to benefit themselves financially". See also - Ethereum & The DAO. > and almost all of the interesting blockchain projects are still in the R&D phase. Bitcoin is more than 10 years old. It is a mature tech that is still in search of a problem.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
>> digital property that cannot be reproduced for free. > Sure, all through the magic of using a medium sized country's worth of electricity.... Exactly. Also, I'd question if having more kinds of "property that cannot be reproduced for free" is a good thing. We have plenty of that already. The world becomes better as more things can be reproduced cheaper.
- dorgo 9y ago
  It's like saying free/easy dollar reproduction would make the world better.
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    No. You can't eat replicated dollars. But you could eat replicated food, wear replicated clothes or drive a replicated car.
mpfundstein 9y ago
Bitcoin solves a problem. Ever used a dark web market. Good luck with Paypal
- emodendroket 9y ago
  If the problem it solves is "I need a way to buy illegal drugs, weapons, and fake IDs while evading the police," I think you can see obvious problems to mass-market adoption. I also wonder whether a system with a permanent, publicly accessible ledger is truly ideal for this application.

tCfD 9y ago

> cannot be reproduced for free Only if you opt into the particular set of constraints that define what that property is (as set forth in the base of protocol code most commonly used to define it). If you don't, as innumerable forks of Bitcoin have demonstrated, you certainly can reproduce it for free. I suspect there is a hypothesis of "property" at work here that is being subject to some very privileged and Protean interpretations.

dorgo 9y ago
Sure. You can print your own money for free and call it FakeDollar. Nobody will confuse it with the real thing
- dragontamer 9y ago
  You mean TetherCoin? Which some people are actually treating like US Dollars for some insane reason?

calibas 9y ago

Seems to me that there's this bipolar relationship with blockchain, and now that the manic period is over, we're going into depression. Instead of being this magic solution to all these problems, now it's some hideous failure, and I think both viewpoints don't really see blockchain for what it is. If you're a journalist, now is the time to be extremely critical of blockchain and cryptocurrencies if you want some easy popularity.