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The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/reli

The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

icebraining 9y ago
I think your perception of "power" is too narrow. Influence into the behaviors and opinions of people is power. The money they bring in and distribute is power. And the fact that the Queen of Britain is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England gives the Church importance - and therefore power - over many other influences.
jacquesm 9y ago
> The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there. > We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government representatives) is another. Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third. If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also fine by me. As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist could ever be elected President of the USA. > No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England
- leereeves 9y ago
  Only a small and bitterly disputed slice of Ireland is part of the UK.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Good point, I should have written 'Northern Ireland', apologies.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      Beyond mere pedantry, I think it's relevant to your point. How powerful is the church (any church) in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland remains in the UK because of the Protestants. Is the Anglican (or any other protestant church) powerful there? And if the Catholic Church (and the Catholics) were actually powerful in Northern Ireland, would it remain part of the UK?
- madengr 9y ago
  There is a Falun Gong group here in Kansas that had a float in local parade. Funny that they didn't have the swastika emblem shown on they wiki.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Ireland is very much a part of the UK Well, that would simplify one of the thorny issues in Brexit, but, no, it's really very much a separate sovereign nation, and not even one of the UKs former possessions that still shares a monarch with the UK.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Yes, my bad I should have written 'Northern Ireland'.
- surfmike 9y ago
  nit: Ireland is very much not a part of the UK. Germany's church tax is only paid by members of a particular religion.
burfog 9y ago
The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law. That's not zero power.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- surfmike 9y ago
  That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Separation of Church and state is a thing in many places. Usurping of the power of the Church by the state is just as bad as the reverse.
    - surfmike 9y ago
      Agreed; I'm just arguing that it's disingenuous to say the church controls the government in this case.
madengr 9y ago
But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.
- tallanvor 9y ago
  And in the US a lot of places have managed to sneak in government funding of religious schools using vouchers.
matte_black 9y ago
As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government. In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.
- giggles_giggles 9y ago
  I don't know what you mean "have gained control...to a shocking degree" -- Christians are the ones that founded the country. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"... Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God.
  - krapp 9y ago
    >Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God. Those same monarchs believed they held the divine right to rule given to them by the same God, and those same Christians believed that same God justified their enslavement of their fellow men, rape and subjugation of women, persecution of Jews, and the genocide of indigenous and "pagan" cultures that refused conversion. You've got cause and effect reversed. The modern concept of universal human rights as espoused by the Founding Fathers comes from Enlightenment principles, not Christian.
sykh 9y ago
...will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state. There are lots of examples of religious fervor going up against a state and winning. If a movement gains sufficient mindshare and it’s adherents are sufficiently galvanized then things that get in the way have a tendency to fail. This possibility should not be discounted so cavalierly.

icebraining 9y ago

I think your perception of "power" is too narrow. Influence into the behaviors and opinions of people is power. The money they bring in and distribute is power. And the fact that the Queen of Britain is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England gives the Church importance - and therefore power - over many other influences.

jacquesm 9y ago

> The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there. > We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government representatives) is another. Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third. If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also fine by me. As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist could ever be elected President of the USA. > No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England

leereeves 9y ago
Only a small and bitterly disputed slice of Ireland is part of the UK.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Good point, I should have written 'Northern Ireland', apologies.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    Beyond mere pedantry, I think it's relevant to your point. How powerful is the church (any church) in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland remains in the UK because of the Protestants. Is the Anglican (or any other protestant church) powerful there? And if the Catholic Church (and the Catholics) were actually powerful in Northern Ireland, would it remain part of the UK?
madengr 9y ago
There is a Falun Gong group here in Kansas that had a float in local parade. Funny that they didn't have the swastika emblem shown on they wiki.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Ireland is very much a part of the UK Well, that would simplify one of the thorny issues in Brexit, but, no, it's really very much a separate sovereign nation, and not even one of the UKs former possessions that still shares a monarch with the UK.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Yes, my bad I should have written 'Northern Ireland'.
surfmike 9y ago
nit: Ireland is very much not a part of the UK. Germany's church tax is only paid by members of a particular religion.

burfog 9y ago

The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law. That's not zero power.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
surfmike 9y ago
That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Separation of Church and state is a thing in many places. Usurping of the power of the Church by the state is just as bad as the reverse.
  - surfmike 9y ago
    Agreed; I'm just arguing that it's disingenuous to say the church controls the government in this case.

madengr 9y ago

But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.

tallanvor 9y ago
And in the US a lot of places have managed to sneak in government funding of religious schools using vouchers.

matte_black 9y ago

As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government. In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.

giggles_giggles 9y ago
I don't know what you mean "have gained control...to a shocking degree" -- Christians are the ones that founded the country. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"... Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God.
- krapp 9y ago
  >Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God. Those same monarchs believed they held the divine right to rule given to them by the same God, and those same Christians believed that same God justified their enslavement of their fellow men, rape and subjugation of women, persecution of Jews, and the genocide of indigenous and "pagan" cultures that refused conversion. You've got cause and effect reversed. The modern concept of universal human rights as espoused by the Founding Fathers comes from Enlightenment principles, not Christian.

sykh 9y ago

...will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state. There are lots of examples of religious fervor going up against a state and winning. If a movement gains sufficient mindshare and it’s adherents are sufficiently galvanized then things that get in the way have a tendency to fail. This possibility should not be discounted so cavalierly.