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What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overth

What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there?

wccrawford 9y ago
They got that way, and keep it that way, by doing things like this.
s1312312 9y ago
Christian churches played a major role in the end of communism in East Germany.
jacquesm 9y ago
They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in general.
- andy_ppp 9y ago
  The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I think your perception of "power" is too narrow. Influence into the behaviors and opinions of people is power. The money they bring in and distribute is power. And the fact that the Queen of Britain is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England gives the Church importance - and therefore power - over many other influences.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    > The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there. > We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government representatives) is another. Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third. If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also fine by me. As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist could ever be elected President of the USA. > No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England
    - leereeves 9y ago
      Only a small and bitterly disputed slice of Ireland is part of the UK.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Good point, I should have written 'Northern Ireland', apologies.
        leereeves 9y ago
        Beyond mere pedantry, I think it's relevant to your point. How powerful is the church (any church) in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland remains in the UK because of the Protestants. Is the Anglican (or any other protestant church) powerful there? And if the Catholic Church (and the Catholics) were actually powerful in Northern Ireland, would it remain part of the UK?
  - burfog 9y ago
    The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law. That's not zero power.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - surfmike 9y ago
      That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        Separation of Church and state is a thing in many places. Usurping of the power of the Church by the state is just as bad as the reverse.
        surfmike 9y ago
        Agreed; I'm just arguing that it's disingenuous to say the church controls the government in this case.
  - madengr 9y ago
    But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.
    - tallanvor 9y ago
      And in the US a lot of places have managed to sneak in government funding of religious schools using vouchers.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government. In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.
    - giggles_giggles 9y ago
      I don't know what you mean "have gained control...to a shocking degree" -- Christians are the ones that founded the country. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"... Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God.
      - krapp 9y ago
        >Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God. Those same monarchs believed they held the divine right to rule given to them by the same God, and those same Christians believed that same God justified their enslavement of their fellow men, rape and subjugation of women, persecution of Jews, and the genocide of indigenous and "pagan" cultures that refused conversion. You've got cause and effect reversed. The modern concept of universal human rights as espoused by the Founding Fathers comes from Enlightenment principles, not Christian.
  - sykh 9y ago
    ...will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state. There are lots of examples of religious fervor going up against a state and winning. If a movement gains sufficient mindshare and it’s adherents are sufficiently galvanized then things that get in the way have a tendency to fail. This possibility should not be discounted so cavalierly.
- vkou 9y ago
  Also, outside of Europe, the United States (Although church power there is not centralized in any one particular denomination.)
- surfmike 9y ago
  Poland and Ireland yes, but that's because of popular support. The church despite its past popularity as well as its resources has little influence on politics in Spain, Italy, Germany.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    In Germany the Church still manages to use the government to fill its coffers, and the Christian Democratic party has been a major force in politics for decades. In Spain we have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(Spain) And in Italy we have the Pope as one powerful element, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Italy) (which is Christian 'left'). That it is with 'popular support' is obvious to me, that's the whole point of these movements, to get so many people into their organization that you're going to have to take them into account. That's been their strategy for centuries, if it was just a bunch of priests nobody would care.
- nfoz 9y ago
  It may be oversimplifying to say that they're concerned with a power block arising from Christian churches. They could be concerned with the cultural and viral ideas of the texts themselves. Religious texts beget mindsets, attitudes, ways of life. That could be the disruption to status-quo social order that they're worried about. It may be secondary for power-blocks to arise from people organizing around those uprising belief systems. Anyway this might be just an administrative stepping stone; maybe just being more consistent in their long-existing sorta-soft-ban on religions, rather than deliberately taking a new step towards banning them even harder. Can anyone here advise how significant this is relative to the status quo?
  - fspeech 9y ago
    The NYT article itself provided good context: the Bible is available at church bookstores but no longer online. They even give an estimate of how many copies have been printed.
- whatyoucantsay 9y ago
  It's odd to see you speaking of the power of religious entities in Europe and staying silent on the Middle East, where they truly are a force that can topple kings.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West And they rely very heavily on maintaining that, and vendors of competing ideologies are a threat to that. > I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there? If the history of authoritarian regimes being overthrown is any guide, with intense violence by both outsiders and non-top insiders of the current regime against top insiders andnl those who remain loyal to them. The risk per year is much lower than, say, the risk per year of the leadership of a western democracy being replaced, but the lifetime risk is probably reasonably concerning on the absence of active steps to destroy alternate sources of ideology and identity, and the consequences for the leadership should that risk be realized are quite severe.
ajmurmann 9y ago
There is a great two pay PBS documentary called "China - A Century of Revolution". It's fascinating to watch. It shows how the was just one BS revolution after another, each of them leading to destruction and unfathomable suffering. By the time you get to the protests leading up to the Tianmen massacre you'll go "Fuck no! Not again!" It's incredible to watch that in yourself and leads to greater understanding of Chinese politics. Not saying that what they are doing is right or did be supported, but at least it makes it so you can understand it beyond a "they are just evil and power hungry" angle. Stability looks suddenly very attractive.
- hangonhn 9y ago
  If you liked that, check out the book "Wealth and Power": https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Power-Chinas-Twenty-first-Century-ebook/dp/B00BH0VU4W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523032991&sr=8-1&keywords=wealth+and+power https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Power-Chinas-Twenty-first-Cent... It's a book on the history of these revolutions from 1850 onward.
hangonhn 9y ago
Popular overthrow of the government is an integral part of the historiography of China. While China never (except for very briefly) had democracy, ever since its first dynasties there was the idea of the "Mandate of Heaven". Emperors ruled via that mandate but unlike the Western "Divine Rights", the mandate can be lost if the emperor does a bad job. How? A popular revolt. Emperors can rule with absolute power but the people has the "right" to overthrow him. A revolt that is successful is considered blessed by heaven. Most Chinese dynasties are the results of popular revolts. This what gives rise to the dynastic cycle of China. Chinese governments of the past weren't any less powerful in regards to what they can do but that has never stopped them from being overthrown. The escape from this cycle is a non-violent change of government, i.e. democracy, but China just took a giant step in the opposite direction by getting rid of term limits. So back to the cycles!

What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there?

wccrawford 9y ago

They got that way, and keep it that way, by doing things like this.

s1312312 9y ago

Christian churches played a major role in the end of communism in East Germany.

jacquesm 9y ago

They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when you strip away the veneer. You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland, Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and life in general.

andy_ppp 9y ago
The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state, unless God herself returns to Earth...
- icebraining 9y ago
  I think your perception of "power" is too narrow. Influence into the behaviors and opinions of people is power. The money they bring in and distribute is power. And the fact that the Queen of Britain is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England gives the Church importance - and therefore power - over many other influences.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  > The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK. That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the church has a lot of power there. > We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably true. You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government representatives) is another. Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third. If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also fine by me. As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist could ever be elected President of the USA. > No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England
  - leereeves 9y ago
    Only a small and bitterly disputed slice of Ireland is part of the UK.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Good point, I should have written 'Northern Ireland', apologies.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        Beyond mere pedantry, I think it's relevant to your point. How powerful is the church (any church) in Northern Ireland? Northern Ireland remains in the UK because of the Protestants. Is the Anglican (or any other protestant church) powerful there? And if the Catholic Church (and the Catholics) were actually powerful in Northern Ireland, would it remain part of the UK?
- burfog 9y ago
  The leader of your church has the right to dissolve parliament. She can also refuse to grant assent to a law. That's not zero power.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - surfmike 9y ago
    That's more about the monarchy; the monarch is not the spiritual head of the church, and the fact that they are considered the lead if anything shows how the state triumphed over religion.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      Separation of Church and state is a thing in many places. Usurping of the power of the Church by the state is just as bad as the reverse.
      - surfmike 9y ago
        Agreed; I'm just arguing that it's disingenuous to say the church controls the government in this case.
- madengr 9y ago
  But don't you have government funded religious schools? As a US citizen, I find that disturbing.
  - tallanvor 9y ago
    And in the US a lot of places have managed to sneak in government funding of religious schools using vouchers.
- matte_black 9y ago
  As long as the voters are controlled by the church, your church has control of your government. In the United States, Christianity has obtained government influence to a shocking degree thanks to huge blocks of Christian voters.
  - giggles_giggles 9y ago
    I don't know what you mean "have gained control...to a shocking degree" -- Christians are the ones that founded the country. "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights"... Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God.
    - krapp 9y ago
      >Show some gratitude for the religion from which grew the very concept of human rights you now take for granted in the West and for the faithful who overthrew monarchs to enshrine those rights, which they believed were given to them by God. Those same monarchs believed they held the divine right to rule given to them by the same God, and those same Christians believed that same God justified their enslavement of their fellow men, rape and subjugation of women, persecution of Jews, and the genocide of indigenous and "pagan" cultures that refused conversion. You've got cause and effect reversed. The modern concept of universal human rights as espoused by the Founding Fathers comes from Enlightenment principles, not Christian.
- sykh 9y ago
  ...will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state. There are lots of examples of religious fervor going up against a state and winning. If a movement gains sufficient mindshare and it’s adherents are sufficiently galvanized then things that get in the way have a tendency to fail. This possibility should not be discounted so cavalierly.
vkou 9y ago
Also, outside of Europe, the United States (Although church power there is not centralized in any one particular denomination.)
surfmike 9y ago
Poland and Ireland yes, but that's because of popular support. The church despite its past popularity as well as its resources has little influence on politics in Spain, Italy, Germany.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  In Germany the Church still manages to use the government to fill its coffers, and the Christian Democratic party has been a major force in politics for decades. In Spain we have this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(Spain) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_(Spain) And in Italy we have the Pope as one powerful element, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(Italy) (which is Christian 'left'). That it is with 'popular support' is obvious to me, that's the whole point of these movements, to get so many people into their organization that you're going to have to take them into account. That's been their strategy for centuries, if it was just a bunch of priests nobody would care.
nfoz 9y ago
It may be oversimplifying to say that they're concerned with a power block arising from Christian churches. They could be concerned with the cultural and viral ideas of the texts themselves. Religious texts beget mindsets, attitudes, ways of life. That could be the disruption to status-quo social order that they're worried about. It may be secondary for power-blocks to arise from people organizing around those uprising belief systems. Anyway this might be just an administrative stepping stone; maybe just being more consistent in their long-existing sorta-soft-ban on religions, rather than deliberately taking a new step towards banning them even harder. Can anyone here advise how significant this is relative to the status quo?
- fspeech 9y ago
  The NYT article itself provided good context: the Bible is available at church bookstores but no longer online. They even give an estimate of how many copies have been printed.
whatyoucantsay 9y ago
It's odd to see you speaking of the power of religious entities in Europe and staying silent on the Middle East, where they truly are a force that can topple kings.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a way not possible in the West And they rely very heavily on maintaining that, and vendors of competing ideologies are a threat to that. > I can’t really foresee how the state would be overthrown by the people there? If the history of authoritarian regimes being overthrown is any guide, with intense violence by both outsiders and non-top insiders of the current regime against top insiders andnl those who remain loyal to them. The risk per year is much lower than, say, the risk per year of the leadership of a western democracy being replaced, but the lifetime risk is probably reasonably concerning on the absence of active steps to destroy alternate sources of ideology and identity, and the consequences for the leadership should that risk be realized are quite severe.

ajmurmann 9y ago

There is a great two pay PBS documentary called "China - A Century of Revolution". It's fascinating to watch. It shows how the was just one BS revolution after another, each of them leading to destruction and unfathomable suffering. By the time you get to the protests leading up to the Tianmen massacre you'll go "Fuck no! Not again!" It's incredible to watch that in yourself and leads to greater understanding of Chinese politics. Not saying that what they are doing is right or did be supported, but at least it makes it so you can understand it beyond a "they are just evil and power hungry" angle. Stability looks suddenly very attractive.

hangonhn 9y ago
If you liked that, check out the book "Wealth and Power": https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Power-Chinas-Twenty-first-Century-ebook/dp/B00BH0VU4W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1523032991&sr=8-1&keywords=wealth+and+power https://www.amazon.com/Wealth-Power-Chinas-Twenty-first-Cent... It's a book on the history of these revolutions from 1850 onward.

hangonhn 9y ago

Popular overthrow of the government is an integral part of the historiography of China. While China never (except for very briefly) had democracy, ever since its first dynasties there was the idea of the "Mandate of Heaven". Emperors ruled via that mandate but unlike the Western "Divine Rights", the mandate can be lost if the emperor does a bad job. How? A popular revolt. Emperors can rule with absolute power but the people has the "right" to overthrow him. A revolt that is successful is considered blessed by heaven. Most Chinese dynasties are the results of popular revolts. This what gives rise to the dynastic cycle of China. Chinese governments of the past weren't any less powerful in regards to what they can do but that has never stopped them from being overthrown. The escape from this cycle is a non-violent change of government, i.e. democracy, but China just took a giant step in the opposite direction by getting rid of term limits. So back to the cycles!