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I think he has a great point here. I think the most important part of that kind of education would be to awaken the masses to the fact that they're being manip

by aik 16y ago

I think he has a great point here. I think the most important part of that kind of education would be to awaken the masses to the fact that they're being manipulated every single day by everything around them, whether someone has constructed the manipulation on purpose or not. Clearly the ideas in most people's heads aren't their own and judging by how canned they sound, I can't imagine they have put much thought themselves into the idea. This would be immensely useful in creating people who were perhaps more resistant to persuasion strategies of our education system, government, product marketing, and humans in general; and instead create people who are themselves more freely thinking - producers and thinkers instead of pure consumers. In addition, it's unbelievable that people (including me) are overcome by the simplest of persuasive strategies. If we weren't so poorly (on purpose) educated on rhetoric and debate, and if we had some understanding and dependence on our inner selves and strength, I believe things would be very different. I'm behind this idea!

jseliger 16y ago
I think the most important part of that kind of education would be to awaken the masses to the fact that they're being manipulated every single day by everything around them, whether someone has constructed the manipulation on purpose or not. I'm a grad student in English lit at the University of Arizona, and based on my experience teaching freshmen comp and listening to various other teachers and so on, I'd guess that the world is not particularly interested in being awoken, never has been, and probably will never will be. A small segment, yes, but definitely not "the masses." * If we weren't so poorly (on purpose) educated on rhetoric and debate,* I think this is highly improbable: don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance, incompetence, and randomness.
- aik 16y ago
  "I think this is highly improbable" I apologize - I should have either not included the parenthesis comment or explained it further. So to explain it a little further, I don't think we give our forefathers enough credit when they devised the school system that they did post-civil war. I agree this thought is a bit conspiratorial at nature, however it does say something when our system is obviously missing certain basic subjects to assist in critical thought, especially with the knowledge that the most intelligent and successful minds created it. I'm still forming an opinion here, but I do find it suspicious. "the world is not particularly interested in being awoken, never has been, and probably will never will be." This may be true, however it is in everyone's best interest that they are 'awoken' to the best of their abilities. Also, with the semi-recent discovery/invention of frighteningly-effective persuasion techniques, I believe this is more important than ever.
  - jerf 16y ago
    You don't really need to hypothesize. It isn't a conspiracy theory that schools were designed to produce good factory workers, it is documented historical fact. (Where by "documented historical fact" I mean as factual as any "historical" fact ever is.) See something like http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm . You do not have to agree with Gatto's prescription for what schools should become or agree with his reaction to the fact that schools were designed to produce good factory workers to agree that the proposition is very well grounded in fact, when it comes complete with quotes about the intention from the people who were creating our schools in the first place. For myself, I do not believe that people still truly intend it this way; I do not believe there is a mass conscious effort to prevent critical thinking skills from being developed or to deliberately hold people back from realizing their true potential. If you find your brain rebelling against the entire idea that schools could have been created for this purpose, remember this was over a hundred years ago, and I for one don't claim this is still the animus behind schools. In fact I suggest that the vast bulk of people's actions demonstrate a true desire to arm children with the best education they can be given, it's just that the average person, even the average person deeply involved with education, is clueless about how to actually bring that result about in the real world. Meanwhile, the pattern of "what a school looks like" was laid down when this was a conscious intention and through literally 5 or 6 generations now has accidentally been enshrined as Gospel, and few people are yet thinking outside the box; those that do are laughed at at best, vilified at worst. Fortunately, the Internet will, eventually, change this, though probably not until the current teen generation, the one that has never known the world without it, is the majority on the PTA.
- zooey 16y ago
  From this kind of comment I remember why I feel sometimes a bit frustrated by the technical environment. Unfortunately what open most your mind (as Graduating in English vs CS or Engineering) and make you a better person is not what is (probably) valuated more by our society. And for the SA post:I feel bad reading his thoughts, sometimes. He is so cynic.
- loewenskind 16y ago
  >don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance, incompetence, and randomness This is a fair guideline, but it will also prevent you from recognizing when anyone who is malicious and pretends to be ignorant or incompetent.

by aik 16y ago

jseliger 16y ago

I think the most important part of that kind of education would be to awaken the masses to the fact that they're being manipulated every single day by everything around them, whether someone has constructed the manipulation on purpose or not. I'm a grad student in English lit at the University of Arizona, and based on my experience teaching freshmen comp and listening to various other teachers and so on, I'd guess that the world is not particularly interested in being awoken, never has been, and probably will never will be. A small segment, yes, but definitely not "the masses." * If we weren't so poorly (on purpose) educated on rhetoric and debate,* I think this is highly improbable: don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance, incompetence, and randomness.

aik 16y ago
"I think this is highly improbable" I apologize - I should have either not included the parenthesis comment or explained it further. So to explain it a little further, I don't think we give our forefathers enough credit when they devised the school system that they did post-civil war. I agree this thought is a bit conspiratorial at nature, however it does say something when our system is obviously missing certain basic subjects to assist in critical thought, especially with the knowledge that the most intelligent and successful minds created it. I'm still forming an opinion here, but I do find it suspicious. "the world is not particularly interested in being awoken, never has been, and probably will never will be." This may be true, however it is in everyone's best interest that they are 'awoken' to the best of their abilities. Also, with the semi-recent discovery/invention of frighteningly-effective persuasion techniques, I believe this is more important than ever.
- jerf 16y ago
  You don't really need to hypothesize. It isn't a conspiracy theory that schools were designed to produce good factory workers, it is documented historical fact. (Where by "documented historical fact" I mean as factual as any "historical" fact ever is.) See something like http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm . You do not have to agree with Gatto's prescription for what schools should become or agree with his reaction to the fact that schools were designed to produce good factory workers to agree that the proposition is very well grounded in fact, when it comes complete with quotes about the intention from the people who were creating our schools in the first place. For myself, I do not believe that people still truly intend it this way; I do not believe there is a mass conscious effort to prevent critical thinking skills from being developed or to deliberately hold people back from realizing their true potential. If you find your brain rebelling against the entire idea that schools could have been created for this purpose, remember this was over a hundred years ago, and I for one don't claim this is still the animus behind schools. In fact I suggest that the vast bulk of people's actions demonstrate a true desire to arm children with the best education they can be given, it's just that the average person, even the average person deeply involved with education, is clueless about how to actually bring that result about in the real world. Meanwhile, the pattern of "what a school looks like" was laid down when this was a conscious intention and through literally 5 or 6 generations now has accidentally been enshrined as Gospel, and few people are yet thinking outside the box; those that do are laughed at at best, vilified at worst. Fortunately, the Internet will, eventually, change this, though probably not until the current teen generation, the one that has never known the world without it, is the majority on the PTA.
zooey 16y ago
From this kind of comment I remember why I feel sometimes a bit frustrated by the technical environment. Unfortunately what open most your mind (as Graduating in English vs CS or Engineering) and make you a better person is not what is (probably) valuated more by our society. And for the SA post:I feel bad reading his thoughts, sometimes. He is so cynic.
loewenskind 16y ago
>don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance, incompetence, and randomness This is a fair guideline, but it will also prevent you from recognizing when anyone who is malicious and pretends to be ignorant or incompetent.