4 ms·

That makes zero sense from a business perspective. "I know, let's put out a boring commodity product that has no unique selling points, doesn't match our ethos

That makes zero sense from a business perspective. "I know, let's put out a boring commodity product that has no unique selling points, doesn't match our ethos, and has a tiny niche market. And we'll sell it at the same razor-thin margin that everyone else does!" That couldn't be further from Apple's way of doing business. If you want a cheap commodity tower, just buy one, but don't expect Apple to make one for you.

alkonaut 9y ago
Apples uniqueness here is their OS and the applications that run on it. That’s why people would buy a Mac over an HP. Only that. If they want pros to keep using Mac OS for video etc, then they need to have competitive hardware. Apples other concern is the developer side and the app ecosystem: high end build machines and developer workstations are also relevant for their actual business which is selling apps and phones. Computer hardware for professionals is just a boring service Apple needs to provide in order to support the rest of their business. It’s not even a visible product like a MacBook or an iMac- it’s designed to be hidden on the floor because it’s huge and noisy (the trash can was a failed attempt at working around that fact) Edit: to follow up on the “powerful machines are a boring service” idea: If Apple didn’t want to risk the brand damage of launching a boring product, they could simply license dell or hp to sell certain servers and workstations with Mac OS to let the highest end render machines and build servers etc run Mac OS. They could easily charge a 20% premium and people would be happy to buy them.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  "Apples uniqueness here is their OS and the applications that run on it." I really think you're wrong. Even a lot of people who run Windows or Linux prefer Apple hardware.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    I should clarify that I mean on high end workstations and compute/build servers now. Machines that no one sees or touches, and are only required because you are already in the Apple ecosystem, and need to do e.g. builds using xcode, or video rendering using some OS X software. Apple make excellent laptops, phones etc. but those are products in a completely different category. I think lots of people use macs to run linux (especially developers). The number of people that run Windows exclusively on Mac is probably pretty small though.
fludlight 9y ago
Ignoring the GP, most of the comments in this thread are people begging for an overpriced commodity tower. People are happy to pay the Apple premium, but they expect the latest specs.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  With “match the price” I’m completely fine with a reasonable Apple tax, and obviously a bigger one if there is a quality difference. I’m not expecting Apple to launch a plastic tower, and if they make a 2 socket Xeon machine looking like the old Mac Pro, then it’s certanly fair to charge a bit of s premium over an HP tower. Most importantly though it needs to be compatible with most high end hardware from the day it’s launched. If Nvidia makes a gtx 3080 the day after you bought your Mac Pro you can’t worry about when the Mac compatible version comes out, or whether it will cost twice what the PC compatible card does.
toufka 9y ago
And yet that product is absolutely critical for them to keep selling their iPhones, iWatches, and iEverythings. They might not make a single dollar on the sale of the pro machines - and it would still be worth every dollar of engineering put into the project to keep the devs happy in order to keep their other markets healthy.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  There's zero evidence that this is true. Apple is aggregating an incredible amount of consumer demand on iOS, so developers will jump through a ton of hoops to serve that market. Is there any evidence that iOS doesn't have as many great apps because developers are fleeing because there's not a Mac Pro that they like?
  - toufka 9y ago
    I'd be curious - from an academic/economist-like perspective - if that is a curve you can't see in data until it's broken. People stay and try and tough it out, then once they reach their tipping point they rage-quit and you never get them back. I kind of suspect that's what happened last year - everyone was just toughing it out waiting for the pro kits, and when it never came the threats that came in from big shops were very real. Enough so that Apple broke every tradition it had regarding future product announcements, and laid a lot of their goodwill on the line to promise a fix.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      If you're talking about the video, audio, photo, 3D, etc. markets, then maybe, though I'm really skeptical. I think sales of the Mac Pro have probably been sliding for awhile and Apple is turning their attention to it. I doubt there's some cataclysmic cliff or that it can't be turned around. Regardless, this doesn't have much to do with the macOS / iOS dev market, which is what I was responding to. No chance that there are a bunch of big dev shops that got fed up with not having the Pro desktop / laptop hardware from Apple that they want and decided they'd rather just abandon the Apple customer base rather than deal with it. The value of that customer base is huge, and those dev shops will go through a lot to reach it. "Our business has always been building apps for iOS and Android, but we don't like that we can't expand the memory in the iMac Pro, so we're just building Android apps from now on, even though more than half of our clients and customers are on iOS." No way.

alkonaut 9y ago

Apples uniqueness here is their OS and the applications that run on it. That’s why people would buy a Mac over an HP. Only that. If they want pros to keep using Mac OS for video etc, then they need to have competitive hardware. Apples other concern is the developer side and the app ecosystem: high end build machines and developer workstations are also relevant for their actual business which is selling apps and phones. Computer hardware for professionals is just a boring service Apple needs to provide in order to support the rest of their business. It’s not even a visible product like a MacBook or an iMac- it’s designed to be hidden on the floor because it’s huge and noisy (the trash can was a failed attempt at working around that fact) Edit: to follow up on the “powerful machines are a boring service” idea: If Apple didn’t want to risk the brand damage of launching a boring product, they could simply license dell or hp to sell certain servers and workstations with Mac OS to let the highest end render machines and build servers etc run Mac OS. They could easily charge a 20% premium and people would be happy to buy them.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
"Apples uniqueness here is their OS and the applications that run on it." I really think you're wrong. Even a lot of people who run Windows or Linux prefer Apple hardware.
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I should clarify that I mean on high end workstations and compute/build servers now. Machines that no one sees or touches, and are only required because you are already in the Apple ecosystem, and need to do e.g. builds using xcode, or video rendering using some OS X software. Apple make excellent laptops, phones etc. but those are products in a completely different category. I think lots of people use macs to run linux (especially developers). The number of people that run Windows exclusively on Mac is probably pretty small though.

fludlight 9y ago

Ignoring the GP, most of the comments in this thread are people begging for an overpriced commodity tower. People are happy to pay the Apple premium, but they expect the latest specs.

alkonaut 9y ago
With “match the price” I’m completely fine with a reasonable Apple tax, and obviously a bigger one if there is a quality difference. I’m not expecting Apple to launch a plastic tower, and if they make a 2 socket Xeon machine looking like the old Mac Pro, then it’s certanly fair to charge a bit of s premium over an HP tower. Most importantly though it needs to be compatible with most high end hardware from the day it’s launched. If Nvidia makes a gtx 3080 the day after you bought your Mac Pro you can’t worry about when the Mac compatible version comes out, or whether it will cost twice what the PC compatible card does.

toufka 9y ago

And yet that product is absolutely critical for them to keep selling their iPhones, iWatches, and iEverythings. They might not make a single dollar on the sale of the pro machines - and it would still be worth every dollar of engineering put into the project to keep the devs happy in order to keep their other markets healthy.

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
There's zero evidence that this is true. Apple is aggregating an incredible amount of consumer demand on iOS, so developers will jump through a ton of hoops to serve that market. Is there any evidence that iOS doesn't have as many great apps because developers are fleeing because there's not a Mac Pro that they like?
- toufka 9y ago
  I'd be curious - from an academic/economist-like perspective - if that is a curve you can't see in data until it's broken. People stay and try and tough it out, then once they reach their tipping point they rage-quit and you never get them back. I kind of suspect that's what happened last year - everyone was just toughing it out waiting for the pro kits, and when it never came the threats that came in from big shops were very real. Enough so that Apple broke every tradition it had regarding future product announcements, and laid a lot of their goodwill on the line to promise a fix.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    If you're talking about the video, audio, photo, 3D, etc. markets, then maybe, though I'm really skeptical. I think sales of the Mac Pro have probably been sliding for awhile and Apple is turning their attention to it. I doubt there's some cataclysmic cliff or that it can't be turned around. Regardless, this doesn't have much to do with the macOS / iOS dev market, which is what I was responding to. No chance that there are a bunch of big dev shops that got fed up with not having the Pro desktop / laptop hardware from Apple that they want and decided they'd rather just abandon the Apple customer base rather than deal with it. The value of that customer base is huge, and those dev shops will go through a lot to reach it. "Our business has always been building apps for iOS and Android, but we don't like that we can't expand the memory in the iMac Pro, so we're just building Android apps from now on, even though more than half of our clients and customers are on iOS." No way.