5 ms·

If cost of fraud is less than the cost of pins. Then nobody will push for pins. Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a

If cost of fraud is less than the cost of pins. Then nobody will push for pins. Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a minor amount per transaction. However if you add it up across all transactions, it's a significant amount.

jdblair 9y ago
More friction than printing out a receipt and asking me to sign it? BTW, if you want to see just how efficient chip-and-pin can be, go to a bar in a nordic country. In Helsinki I can pay with chip-and-pin as quickly as cash (assuming change). The bartenders won't even hold a tab open for you, they just charge you every time. I've experienced the same efficiency in Sweden.
- clintonb 9y ago
  I only sign paper at restaurants. If a signature is needed at a retail store, I usually sign a digital pad.
  - wycy 9y ago
    Still seems slower than entering a pin on a number pad.
    - mattnewton 9y ago
      Also why are scribbles equatable here, they are very subjective to verify.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Increasingly you sign (or in my case scrawl a wiggly line) a pad but I still sign paper fairly regularly. One of the issues with PIN in the US is likely that you'd have needed a whole new workflow and mobile devices at sit-down restaurants. It would arguably be a better system to move to settling up at the table, but it would still be a big and expensive change.
    - smelendez 9y ago
      You needed new devices anyway to switch to chip, but I think it is a cultural issue with tipping. Some people really like that the server doesn't know how much you tipped until you leave.
      - ghaff 9y ago
        Yeah, that may be part of it. It's not really rational but I don't especially like someone waiting for me to enter a tip amount into a keypad. I imagine others feel similarly. The US isn't unique in having tips but in the UK, for example, they tend to put 10% onto the bill automatically. ADDED: And you needed new devices but not mobile systems to bring to the table.
        nicoburns 9y ago
        However the US is unique in not paying waiting staff minimum wage, which makes tips a whole other thing.
    - bdamm 9y ago
      Other countries have already done this (e.g. Canada). So it's really only about the money and not about the culture.
  - paulie_a 9y ago
    In reality you don't even need to sign the paper. You will still get charged and the signature is irrelevant
- supertrope 9y ago
  As of this month (April 2018), the big four card networks have stopped requiring (USA) merchants to collect signatures if chip is used. They had already waived this documentation step for the ~80% of transactions below $50.
- dalore 9y ago
  With the wireless payment cards, it's even more efficient then cash. Just put your card up to the machine and it takes the payment. No pin or anything. Limited to under a certain amount though. And it does sometimes ask for your pin now and then to make sure it's you.
atonse 9y ago
Actually with chips with pins, it's faster because you can authenticate locally. Since we don't use chips, we have to do a server roundtrip, which is why initially a lot of the chip cards seemed to take "forever" (30 seconds) to authenticate.
- dfox 9y ago
  Another performance issue with early EMV (I assume before NFC) is that it supports more different applications ("cards") on same physical card and there is no preferred one and the terminal essentially tries random file names until it finds something (and in fact is even supposed to continue the search to exhaustion for the rare case when the card contains more than one usable EMV application, in which case the customer is supposed to select the used one from menu). In current version the cards are supposed to contain data file with known name which specifies the filename of preferred application, this is required for NFC cards for somewhat obvious reasons, but AFAIK only recommended for contact-only. This process is probably the largest part of what happens when the terminal/ATM displays message like "Chip initialisation in progress".
Sir_Substance 9y ago
>Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a minor amount per transaction. However if you add it up across all transactions, it's a significant amount. Uuuuuh... The rest of the world has been doing this for at least a decade without any problems at all. You got any kind of citation you can link us to demonstrating that the rest of the world is suffering from this decision in a way that the US is not?
- plopz 9y ago
  How do you give your card to someone else to purchase something?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - supertrope 9y ago
    If "someone else" is referring to the cashier, the customer uses the payment machine themselves. In PIN using countries the waiter brings a machine or you step over to the front counter. If someone else is your spouse, kid, or personal assistant; you tell them the PIN or ask the issuer for an authorized user card.
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    I...don't. Ever. Why would you do that? That's terrible. I usually transfer them the money through the free, instant, secure and traceable inter-bank transfers that are universally provided by every financial institution in my country to every other financial institution in my country, so that they can use their own card.
  - oneplane 9y ago
    You don't. Ever.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    Well, you don't. But I wouldn't have a problem with my partner using my card, in which case I just give them my pin? On the other hand, that is(or should be) literally impossible with signature.
ghaff 9y ago
I've never heard an authoritative answer about why the US didn't go to PINs when chips were adopted. One strongly suspects there was significant concern about changing retail/restaurant/etc. workflows, confusing customers who mostly don't use debit cards (with PINs), and otherwise introduced more confusion and friction to customers than absolutely necessary.
bckygldstn 9y ago
On most of the machines I've used in Sweden, you can input your PIN in advance while the cashier is scanning your items. Then you just push "OK" to confirm the final total and walk away.
- calvano915 9y ago
  This process also occurs in US with the chip transactions. You can start the auth process while checkout scanning is still occurring. So implementing the pin into the mix would be beneficial and not so much added friction/time in completing checkout.
  - bckygldstn 9y ago
    Yeah, I've noticed that works with Apple Pay, but cards still seem really slow to me.

jdblair 9y ago

More friction than printing out a receipt and asking me to sign it? BTW, if you want to see just how efficient chip-and-pin can be, go to a bar in a nordic country. In Helsinki I can pay with chip-and-pin as quickly as cash (assuming change). The bartenders won't even hold a tab open for you, they just charge you every time. I've experienced the same efficiency in Sweden.

clintonb 9y ago
I only sign paper at restaurants. If a signature is needed at a retail store, I usually sign a digital pad.
- wycy 9y ago
  Still seems slower than entering a pin on a number pad.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    Also why are scribbles equatable here, they are very subjective to verify.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Increasingly you sign (or in my case scrawl a wiggly line) a pad but I still sign paper fairly regularly. One of the issues with PIN in the US is likely that you'd have needed a whole new workflow and mobile devices at sit-down restaurants. It would arguably be a better system to move to settling up at the table, but it would still be a big and expensive change.
  - smelendez 9y ago
    You needed new devices anyway to switch to chip, but I think it is a cultural issue with tipping. Some people really like that the server doesn't know how much you tipped until you leave.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Yeah, that may be part of it. It's not really rational but I don't especially like someone waiting for me to enter a tip amount into a keypad. I imagine others feel similarly. The US isn't unique in having tips but in the UK, for example, they tend to put 10% onto the bill automatically. ADDED: And you needed new devices but not mobile systems to bring to the table.
      - nicoburns 9y ago
        However the US is unique in not paying waiting staff minimum wage, which makes tips a whole other thing.
  - bdamm 9y ago
    Other countries have already done this (e.g. Canada). So it's really only about the money and not about the culture.
- paulie_a 9y ago
  In reality you don't even need to sign the paper. You will still get charged and the signature is irrelevant
supertrope 9y ago
As of this month (April 2018), the big four card networks have stopped requiring (USA) merchants to collect signatures if chip is used. They had already waived this documentation step for the ~80% of transactions below $50.
dalore 9y ago
With the wireless payment cards, it's even more efficient then cash. Just put your card up to the machine and it takes the payment. No pin or anything. Limited to under a certain amount though. And it does sometimes ask for your pin now and then to make sure it's you.

atonse 9y ago

Actually with chips with pins, it's faster because you can authenticate locally. Since we don't use chips, we have to do a server roundtrip, which is why initially a lot of the chip cards seemed to take "forever" (30 seconds) to authenticate.

dfox 9y ago
Another performance issue with early EMV (I assume before NFC) is that it supports more different applications ("cards") on same physical card and there is no preferred one and the terminal essentially tries random file names until it finds something (and in fact is even supposed to continue the search to exhaustion for the rare case when the card contains more than one usable EMV application, in which case the customer is supposed to select the used one from menu). In current version the cards are supposed to contain data file with known name which specifies the filename of preferred application, this is required for NFC cards for somewhat obvious reasons, but AFAIK only recommended for contact-only. This process is probably the largest part of what happens when the terminal/ATM displays message like "Chip initialisation in progress".

Sir_Substance 9y ago

>Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a minor amount per transaction. However if you add it up across all transactions, it's a significant amount. Uuuuuh... The rest of the world has been doing this for at least a decade without any problems at all. You got any kind of citation you can link us to demonstrating that the rest of the world is suffering from this decision in a way that the US is not?

plopz 9y ago
How do you give your card to someone else to purchase something?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- supertrope 9y ago
  If "someone else" is referring to the cashier, the customer uses the payment machine themselves. In PIN using countries the waiter brings a machine or you step over to the front counter. If someone else is your spouse, kid, or personal assistant; you tell them the PIN or ask the issuer for an authorized user card.
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  I...don't. Ever. Why would you do that? That's terrible. I usually transfer them the money through the free, instant, secure and traceable inter-bank transfers that are universally provided by every financial institution in my country to every other financial institution in my country, so that they can use their own card.
- oneplane 9y ago
  You don't. Ever.
- gambiting 9y ago
  Well, you don't. But I wouldn't have a problem with my partner using my card, in which case I just give them my pin? On the other hand, that is(or should be) literally impossible with signature.

ghaff 9y ago

I've never heard an authoritative answer about why the US didn't go to PINs when chips were adopted. One strongly suspects there was significant concern about changing retail/restaurant/etc. workflows, confusing customers who mostly don't use debit cards (with PINs), and otherwise introduced more confusion and friction to customers than absolutely necessary.

bckygldstn 9y ago

On most of the machines I've used in Sweden, you can input your PIN in advance while the cashier is scanning your items. Then you just push "OK" to confirm the final total and walk away.

calvano915 9y ago
This process also occurs in US with the chip transactions. You can start the auth process while checkout scanning is still occurring. So implementing the pin into the mix would be beneficial and not so much added friction/time in completing checkout.
- bckygldstn 9y ago
  Yeah, I've noticed that works with Apple Pay, but cards still seem really slow to me.