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So, aside from the fact that this is screaming for chip + pin, isn't this a failure on the cardmaker's part to make a card that you can remove the chip without
by halestock 9y ago
So, aside from the fact that this is screaming for chip + pin, isn't this a failure on the cardmaker's part to make a card that you can remove the chip without destroying the card?
- atonse 9y agoI keep saying this but the we in the US really screwed up in the transition to chips. We had a chance to change behavior but we went ahead and ignored pins. I simply don't understand why, apart from too many retailers complaining.
- cobookman 9y agoIf cost of fraud is less than the cost of pins. Then nobody will push for pins. Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a minor amount per transaction. However if you add it up across all transactions, it's a significant amount.
- jdblair 9y agoMore friction than printing out a receipt and asking me to sign it? BTW, if you want to see just how efficient chip-and-pin can be, go to a bar in a nordic country. In Helsinki I can pay with chip-and-pin as quickly as cash (assuming change). The bartenders won't even hold a tab open for you, they just charge you every time. I've experienced the same efficiency in Sweden.
- clintonb 9y agoI only sign paper at restaurants. If a signature is needed at a retail store, I usually sign a digital pad.
- wycy 9y agoStill seems slower than entering a pin on a number pad.
- mattnewton 9y agoAlso why are scribbles equatable here, they are very subjective to verify.
- ghaff 9y agoIncreasingly you sign (or in my case scrawl a wiggly line) a pad but I still sign paper fairly regularly. One of the issues with PIN in the US is likely that you'd have needed a whole new workflow and mobile devices at sit-down restaurants. It would arguably be a better system to move to settling up at the table, but it would still be a big and expensive change.
- smelendez 9y agoYou needed new devices anyway to switch to chip, but I think it is a cultural issue with tipping. Some people really like that the server doesn't know how much you tipped until you leave.
- ghaff 9y agoYeah, that may be part of it. It's not really rational but I don't especially like someone waiting for me to enter a tip amount into a keypad. I imagine others feel similarly. The US isn't unique in having tips but in the UK, for example, they tend to put 10% onto the bill automatically. ADDED: And you needed new devices but not mobile systems to bring to the table.
- nicoburns 9y agoHowever the US is unique in not paying waiting staff minimum wage, which makes tips a whole other thing.
- bdamm 9y agoOther countries have already done this (e.g. Canada). So it's really only about the money and not about the culture.
- paulie_a 9y agoIn reality you don't even need to sign the paper. You will still get charged and the signature is irrelevant
- supertrope 9y agoAs of this month (April 2018), the big four card networks have stopped requiring (USA) merchants to collect signatures if chip is used. They had already waived this documentation step for the ~80% of transactions below $50.
- dalore 9y agoWith the wireless payment cards, it's even more efficient then cash. Just put your card up to the machine and it takes the payment. No pin or anything. Limited to under a certain amount though. And it does sometimes ask for your pin now and then to make sure it's you.
- atonse 9y agoActually with chips with pins, it's faster because you can authenticate locally. Since we don't use chips, we have to do a server roundtrip, which is why initially a lot of the chip cards seemed to take "forever" (30 seconds) to authenticate.
- dfox 9y agoAnother performance issue with early EMV (I assume before NFC) is that it supports more different applications ("cards") on same physical card and there is no preferred one and the terminal essentially tries random file names until it finds something (and in fact is even supposed to continue the search to exhaustion for the rare case when the card contains more than one usable EMV application, in which case the customer is supposed to select the used one from menu). In current version the cards are supposed to contain data file with known name which specifies the filename of preferred application, this is required for NFC cards for somewhat obvious reasons, but AFAIK only recommended for contact-only. This process is probably the largest part of what happens when the terminal/ATM displays message like "Chip initialisation in progress".
- Sir_Substance 9y ago>Adding pins to checkout process adds friction and checkout time. It might be a minor amount per transaction. However if you add it up across all transactions, it's a significant amount. Uuuuuh... The rest of the world has been doing this for at least a decade without any problems at all. You got any kind of citation you can link us to demonstrating that the rest of the world is suffering from this decision in a way that the US is not?
- plopz 9y agoHow do you give your card to someone else to purchase something?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- supertrope 9y agoIf "someone else" is referring to the cashier, the customer uses the payment machine themselves. In PIN using countries the waiter brings a machine or you step over to the front counter. If someone else is your spouse, kid, or personal assistant; you tell them the PIN or ask the issuer for an authorized user card.
- Sir_Substance 9y agoI...don't. Ever. Why would you do that? That's terrible. I usually transfer them the money through the free, instant, secure and traceable inter-bank transfers that are universally provided by every financial institution in my country to every other financial institution in my country, so that they can use their own card.
- oneplane 9y agoYou don't. Ever.
- gambiting 9y agoWell, you don't. But I wouldn't have a problem with my partner using my card, in which case I just give them my pin? On the other hand, that is(or should be) literally impossible with signature.
- ghaff 9y agoI've never heard an authoritative answer about why the US didn't go to PINs when chips were adopted. One strongly suspects there was significant concern about changing retail/restaurant/etc. workflows, confusing customers who mostly don't use debit cards (with PINs), and otherwise introduced more confusion and friction to customers than absolutely necessary.
- bckygldstn 9y agoOn most of the machines I've used in Sweden, you can input your PIN in advance while the cashier is scanning your items. Then you just push "OK" to confirm the final total and walk away.
- calvano915 9y agoThis process also occurs in US with the chip transactions. You can start the auth process while checkout scanning is still occurring. So implementing the pin into the mix would be beneficial and not so much added friction/time in completing checkout.
- bckygldstn 9y agoYeah, I've noticed that works with Apple Pay, but cards still seem really slow to me.
- bluGill 9y agoI'm complaining as a consumer. I have half a dozen cards in my wallet, and each retailer is incentivizing me to get their card (5% off is hard to ignore), if I applied for and carried all those cards I'd have ~20 cards to carry around, each with a different $%&#@%^^% PIN to memorize. It is not possible to do that. Quite frankly, as a consumer I don't need increased security over what we had 20 years ago (mag strip and signature), someone else took the liability for any fraud. Chip+pin is trying to push the cost of fraud on me, and I don't like it. The value of cards over cash or checks is largely because I pay less price for fraud.
- eloff 9y agoUse the same pin for all. It's only marginally less secure.
- paulie_a 9y agoWhy even require a signature in that case, it's a waste of my time. I've literally wrote "blah blah" and seen the signature accepted notification. Signatures do absolutely nothing in that case so why bother?
- mikeash 9y agoI think they just make it harder for you to claim the transaction was fraudulent.
- paulie_a 9y agoI work in the credit card processing industry and can't even begin to comprehend how a fake signature would help. It wasn't a valid signature. Even when you attempt to make a legitimate signature on a screen it comes out incredibly poorly. The only legitimaticy is that "someone signed some form of letters/made a drawing of a penis". I can't see why that would ever prevent chargebacks
- supertrope 9y agoAs of this month (April 2018), the big four card networks have stopped requiring (USA) merchants to collect signatures if chip is used. They had already waived this documentation step for the ~80% of transactions below $50.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- nostromo 9y agoBanks don't pay the cost of point of sale fraud -- retailers do. I imagine if banks were required to shoulder the cost of point-of-sale fraud, suddenly they'd be very interested in issuing PINs.
- supertrope 9y agoOnly if the retailer has failed to upgrade to reading chips. E-commerce merchants have to absorb 100% of fraud which is why many are so picky about addresses exactly matching and sometimes require ID scans or phone verification for new customers or very large orders.
- jotm 9y agoDon't worry, contactless throws all of that out the window. It's like WPS for routers. Anyone got your card? They can make purchases and cashback till your account is out of cash or they get really tired. Yeah, there can be a limit on the number of transactions, but my bank and several others just don't care, there's only a limit on a single transaction, currently £30. Genius, just genius. That's for personal cards, though. Always use a prepaid card when paying for anything, anywhere.
- gambiting 9y agoThat is just not true - you will be asked for a pin if you use contactless multiple times in succession, and you can't do cashback with contactless at all. I also live in UK.
- jotm 9y agoHow many times? I did 5 consecutive purchases in a day with TSB, no PIN requirement. Contactless VISA allows for cashback. Barclays, 3 consecutive purchases, haven't tried cashback.
- dboreham 9y agoPeople in the US routinely give their cards to other people to use (e.g. relatives). Yet banks tell everyone never to disclose your PIN. So using PINs would prevent card lending which would reduce bank's income.
- antiterra 9y agoChip+signature is a trojan horse for chip+PIN and the terminal hw/sw already works with that system if your bank issues a chip and PIN.
- tucif 9y agoAt least in my country I've seen a common practice for the bank to mail (separately, days before/after) an envelope with a temporary PIN to the customer, so that they can activate the card and change it. Not sure if they do that in the US or if they'd do it for corporate cards as well, but I guess it wouldn't be a problem to intercept the second envelope for whoever intercepts the cards. In that case the PIN wouldn't add any value. Now regarding card destruction, I wonder how hard would it be for them to just print fake cards with fake chips that just have the same numbers. Probably a better solution would be forcing to activate the card in an atm, so that the chip would be validated.. cumbersome but safer.
- RightMillennial 9y agoIn my experience, you'll receive the card and temporary PIN separately in the mail for debit cards in the U.S.
- tantalor 9y agoI'd place the blame more on the card packaging; it should be in a tamper proof envelope. Or there should be a "scratch off" necessary to activate the card.