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The iron law of the internet is that, in the absence of constant high-quality moderation, all discourse eventually becomes toxic. This has been true since the d
by cirgue 9y ago
The iron law of the internet is that, in the absence of constant high-quality moderation, all discourse eventually becomes toxic. This has been true since the days of usenet.
- gurkendoktor 9y agoThe tendency is there, but that doesn't mean that all social platforms become equally toxic over time.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ocschwar 9y agoI think it's more complicated than that. Github isn't toxic. Dreamwidth isn't toxic. The orientation towards microblogging has a lot to do with the toxicity.
- philwelch 9y agoGitHub has its moments.
- danharaj 9y ago> Github isn't toxic There's defo some toxicity on github.
- cctt23 9y agoIt’s mostly not though, and easy to avoid. On Twitter it seems to be the raison detre.
- cirgue 9y agoGitHub has high-quality moderation in the form of repo owners who have a vested interest in punishing bad actors.
- ocschwar 9y agoThat's built in to the medium in question, rather than a tacked on addon.
- hie2neiL 9y agoTwitter could easily adopt some clique-based management where people could see public conversations between members of the clique but would require an invite to reply to such a conversation or show up in related timelines. Of course this wouldn't stop direct attacks or people talking indirectly about other people, but at least it would stop randos from sealioning.
- AnimalMuppet 9y agoGithub isn't quite "discourse" though, at least (I suspect) not in the sense that cirgue meant. That distinction may matter.
- enitihas 9y agoPlease look at this thread and see what people can do even on github https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/issues/15345 https://github.com/ariya/phantomjs/issues/15345
- WhompingWindows 9y agoWould forcing users to verify their identities and post with their full names have any effect on the toxicity? What if filters were used to prevent the most egregious words of hatred? My questions are driving towards this: is it at all possible to have something like twitter that isn't as toxic, given the right features?
- hie2neiL 9y agoRequiring people to identify themselves with verification before they are allowed to communicate seems orwellian to me. Speaking of which, your papers please.
- WorldMaker 9y agoWhat you've described is Facebook, and it has its own toxicity. Auto-moderation is a useful start, but strong community moderation is built on empathy and soft skills, which for the moment is still best handled by people.
- jstarfish 9y agoIf Nextdoor is any indication, posting your name and verified home address next to your comments still won't stop toxicity.
- gaius 9y agoCharging $1 per Tweet would sort it easily
- JoshMnem 9y agoReal names policies don't result in friendlier communities. In places where I've seen people use both pseudonyms and real names, they are sometimes much worse behaved where they are using real names. Facebook groups are full of people using real names who are behaving very badly. Companies can't tell users, "we're forcing you to use your real names so we can conspire with other companies to track you wherever you go against your knowledge", so they say it's to encourage better behavior.
- astine 9y ago"Would forcing users to verify their identities and post with their full names have any effect on the toxicity?" Probably not. Often time people are just as terrible in person and social media just gives them more reach. "What if filters were used to prevent the most egregious words of hatred?" It's too easy to come up with new (((slurs))) to get around such censorship but still spread the same message. "Is it at all possible to have something like twitter that isn't as toxic, given the right features?" Social media often makes people more toxic by exposing them more directly to the opinions of others and they find that intolerable. A lot of the time, the nuances of certain kinds speech are different in different communities and those nuances are lost on social media and people become more toxic as a result. I suspect that carefully considered features could reduce toxicity of discussion, but I don't think that it is just a matter of features. Ultimately it's a people problem and people cannot just be automated around.
- Xeoncross 9y ago> in the absence of constant high-quality moderation, all discourse eventually becomes toxic Sounds like life in general. I think People restrain themselves more than we realize. Especially when there are consequences for actioning out. Remove those and things go south quick. The last 100 years of humanity has had some moments that make the internet look pretty caring. I mean, we're talking hundreds of millions of killings, plus untold numbers of rape and kidnappings across every convenient.
- cirgue 9y ago> Sounds like life in general. I think People restrain themselves more than we realize. Especially when there are consequences for actioning out. Remove those and things go south quick. Hobbes would have gotten a kick out of the internet to be sure. It's about closest to the mythical 'state of nature' we're ever likely to observe.
- mercer 9y agoAbout to be regulated within a decade or a half, and I'm surprised/shocked by the fact that I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
- bassman9000 9y agoThe difference is that, while evading the rapist and the killer in front of you is sometimes difficult, evading a post in any platform is easy: ignore it. The platform is overloaded with them? Ignore the platform. The parallel with real life abuse has to end.
- Xeoncross 9y agoI think you misunderstand. The parallel isn't with the acts - it's with the source. People are selfish and therefore very prone to being evil. Being bad online is expected.
- hie2neiL 9y agoOn the other hand I have never found that big of an issue with said "toxicity". Getting backstabbed in guild environments in MMOs, hurling insults at each other in counterstrike or on IRC, flamewars over irrelevant technical points or many flavors of personal attacks on 4chan have always just been background noise to me. Experiences may differ, but having grown up in the wild west of the internet this is normal to me and therefore I just don't get how it could stress someone out all that much or why people would voluntarily expose themselves like that. Of course over the years I have also learned to wear many hats and not stick my real life identity to everything. Data hygiene is important for your sanity. In that case of twitter I have 3 different accounts. One just for following artists where I harvest their images. One for occasionally having a conversation about tech things and one for video games. None of them are directly associated with my real identity, although with some sleuthing you could notice to which github account my tech one corresponds.
- sp332 9y ago>In that case of twitter I have 3 different accounts.... None of them are directly associated with my real identity So, you don't have close friends of business contacts on Twitter, but you wonder why you don't feel stress when twitter is used to attack you? I think if you were a more serious user, you would feel the pinch more when the network gets hostile.