4 ms·

> And yes, it's idealistic as hell. Not really. In countless rural societies, throughout the world and through history, it's been commonplace for people to hel

> And yes, it's idealistic as hell. Not really. In countless rural societies, throughout the world and through history, it's been commonplace for people to help each other with building their homes, making dirt roads and small bridges, making food and many other tasks - without charging each other for money or bartering. Essentially a small village can work much like a very large family and people would use money almost only when interacting with strangers in a different village.

lifeformed 9y ago
That can work for small communities, but you wouldn't ever be able to accomplish large scale tasks with that limited scale of organization. And not just big buildings and bridges (which one could argue are unnecessary), but projects like research in medicine and agriculture which benefit everyone, but require a large centralization of resources, leadership, and lots of time to create. That doesn't seem like something that could emerge from a anarchist society.
- hermitdev 9y ago
  > ... and bridges (which one could argue are unnecessary) I'm pretty sure you're referring to the Bridge to Nowhere [1] here (~$400M), but one could argue for a number of public works projects that are unnecessary, stupid, or the cause of recurring large expenditures. Chicago, built on a swamp, still constantly has flooding issues. The Deep Tunnel project [2] is currently at > $4B, and still can't handle a relatively common spring storm without dumping sewage into either Lake Michigan or the Illinois-Michigan Sanitation Canal. Not to mention the other regional estuaries that get polluted by overflows such as the Des Plaines River or the Salt Creek (which just happens to run by the Chicago area's premier zoo: Brookfield). Also, Washington DC, also built on a swamp (literal, not the figurative "drain the swamp"). Not sure what measures the city takes to prevent/handle flooding. Also potential hurricane target. New Orleans, built below sea level...right next to the sea, and also a prime target for hurricanes, the worst in recent memory being Katrina. Response to that? Rebuild. Should have been relocate. First search from Google I found says costs from the recovery on that were ~$108B [3] (I don't know the accuracy of this - first time I've ever visited the site). I don't know how much the Army Corps of Engineers has spent rebuilding the dikes & levies that failed after Katrina, but I'd put money down that it is far beyond the $400M spent on the "Bridge to Nowhere". Point is, the Federal government is there to help all citizens, those in small & large communities/cities alike. Infrastructure projects cost money, period. They're actually cheaper in rural areas due to cheaper local labor, sometimes material, and usually (but not always) less corruption and cronyism (road repairs around Chicago are generally of very poor quality, do not last long and are poorly planned - e.g. in Cook County, a road will often be repaired one week, and then promptly torn up the next to replace a sewer/water/gas main). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge [2] http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/367.html http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/367.html [3] https://www.thebalance.com/hurricane-katrina-facts-damage-and-economic-effects-3306023 https://www.thebalance.com/hurricane-katrina-facts-damage-an...
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > you wouldn't ever be able to accomplish large scale tasks I never said that model is meant to be applied at large scale. > projects like research in medicine You could have chosen an example like building a dam. In many countries academia works in a highly decentralized fashion and is less money-driven than other fields. Also see FLOSS. > doesn't seem like something that could emerge from a anarchist society Not from a handful of individuals. However anarchism does not reject large and complex organizations (on the contrary): https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anarchist_FAQ/Why_do_anarchists_oppose_the_current_system%3F/1.6 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anarchist_FAQ/Why_do_anarchist...
PeterisP 9y ago
Sure, there are a lot of social processes that work in smallish communes where people mostly know each other. But that doesn't scale - the relationships break down above the Dunbar limit and become substantially different as you don't even know most of the people. The processes and motivation that work in a 50 people community will not work the same way in a 5000 people community; in the first case people might behave as if they're all a big family with shared interests, in the latter case they will not. The fact that X works in a small village should not be considered as evidence that X would plausibly work in a mid-sized town. For homo sapiens and groups of them, scale matters a lot.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  I'm not sure it's that great in a group of fifty, you would have real problems if you stand out in some way or aren't particularly useful.

lifeformed 9y ago

That can work for small communities, but you wouldn't ever be able to accomplish large scale tasks with that limited scale of organization. And not just big buildings and bridges (which one could argue are unnecessary), but projects like research in medicine and agriculture which benefit everyone, but require a large centralization of resources, leadership, and lots of time to create. That doesn't seem like something that could emerge from a anarchist society.

hermitdev 9y ago
> ... and bridges (which one could argue are unnecessary) I'm pretty sure you're referring to the Bridge to Nowhere [1] here (~$400M), but one could argue for a number of public works projects that are unnecessary, stupid, or the cause of recurring large expenditures. Chicago, built on a swamp, still constantly has flooding issues. The Deep Tunnel project [2] is currently at > $4B, and still can't handle a relatively common spring storm without dumping sewage into either Lake Michigan or the Illinois-Michigan Sanitation Canal. Not to mention the other regional estuaries that get polluted by overflows such as the Des Plaines River or the Salt Creek (which just happens to run by the Chicago area's premier zoo: Brookfield). Also, Washington DC, also built on a swamp (literal, not the figurative "drain the swamp"). Not sure what measures the city takes to prevent/handle flooding. Also potential hurricane target. New Orleans, built below sea level...right next to the sea, and also a prime target for hurricanes, the worst in recent memory being Katrina. Response to that? Rebuild. Should have been relocate. First search from Google I found says costs from the recovery on that were ~$108B [3] (I don't know the accuracy of this - first time I've ever visited the site). I don't know how much the Army Corps of Engineers has spent rebuilding the dikes & levies that failed after Katrina, but I'd put money down that it is far beyond the $400M spent on the "Bridge to Nowhere". Point is, the Federal government is there to help all citizens, those in small & large communities/cities alike. Infrastructure projects cost money, period. They're actually cheaper in rural areas due to cheaper local labor, sometimes material, and usually (but not always) less corruption and cronyism (road repairs around Chicago are generally of very poor quality, do not last long and are poorly planned - e.g. in Cook County, a road will often be repaired one week, and then promptly torn up the next to replace a sewer/water/gas main). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge [2] http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/367.html http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/367.html [3] https://www.thebalance.com/hurricane-katrina-facts-damage-and-economic-effects-3306023 https://www.thebalance.com/hurricane-katrina-facts-damage-an...
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> you wouldn't ever be able to accomplish large scale tasks I never said that model is meant to be applied at large scale. > projects like research in medicine You could have chosen an example like building a dam. In many countries academia works in a highly decentralized fashion and is less money-driven than other fields. Also see FLOSS. > doesn't seem like something that could emerge from a anarchist society Not from a handful of individuals. However anarchism does not reject large and complex organizations (on the contrary): https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anarchist_FAQ/Why_do_anarchists_oppose_the_current_system%3F/1.6 https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Anarchist_FAQ/Why_do_anarchist...

PeterisP 9y ago

Sure, there are a lot of social processes that work in smallish communes where people mostly know each other. But that doesn't scale - the relationships break down above the Dunbar limit and become substantially different as you don't even know most of the people. The processes and motivation that work in a 50 people community will not work the same way in a 5000 people community; in the first case people might behave as if they're all a big family with shared interests, in the latter case they will not. The fact that X works in a small village should not be considered as evidence that X would plausibly work in a mid-sized town. For homo sapiens and groups of them, scale matters a lot.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
I'm not sure it's that great in a group of fifty, you would have real problems if you stand out in some way or aren't particularly useful.