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Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon muse

Indeed, this fact this makes me proud to be a Jew. (A happy Passover to all whom it may concern). As a young boy my father used to take me to the Pergamon museum in Berlin - one major exhibit is the Babylonian street of processions (it dates to the neo-Babylonian empire) He used to say - here you see our heritage, we were around the show when Berlin (and all the other great capitals of the world) were still a swamp.

cik 9y ago
מועדים לשמחה
- MichaelMoser123 9y ago
  מועדים וזמנים לששון
  - SpeciesInvader 9y ago
    חג כשר ושמח
    - MichaelMoser123 9y ago
      תודה אחי
    - jakemor 9y ago
      !חג שמח
      - avremel 9y ago
        א גוט מועד!
        throwawayjewis2 9y ago
        !א גוט יום טוב
oblio 9y ago
Don't take this the wrong way, but from the outside, this seems condescending. And secondly it's important to remember your roots, but in my opinion the focus was wrong (or maybe the conversation included this aspect, you just didn't present it): we were around back when Berlin was a swamp and we're still around now, prosperous and developed. In my eyes that's the real achievement! (look at Iraq, Iran, Egypt, even Greece or India to some degree)
- MichaelMoser123 9y ago
  I don't see any condescension (it doesn't diminish the present greatness of the great capitals at all), it is a factual observation (also you might need a sense of humour to see the irony on the part of what used to be a persecuted minority, after all - and I used to be in east Berlin before the frigging wall came down)
  - oblio 9y ago
    Could be. What I do know is that I have Greek friends who express the same feeling and they weren't a persecuted minority. There's a certain hubris about nationalities with a rich past. It's not necessarily bad, but it's still hubris :)
    - lardo 9y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece
      - oblio 9y ago
        Dude, I’m Romanian, I know about the Ottomans. Greeks were still the majority in Greece and they were a well regarded minority in the empire. They were persecuted after WW1 (see the population exchanges and the Smyrna massacre). But Greeks don’t view themselves as a persecuted minority, historically. It’s all about the mindset and self-perception.
    - jjgreen 9y ago
throwawayjewish 9y ago
I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impressed in the least. Instead, it just feels like a long streak of spreading a meme. People often get surprised when I tell them I don't consider myself Jewish anymore or that I don't intend to bring up any children I have Jewish. They often cite their surprise to the fact that Judaism has a long ancestral history. And I really just can't understand this frame of thinking that says Judaism is good because it's been going on for long. So I would be interested if you could explain why this impresses you :)
- MichaelMoser123 9y ago
  Its a personal thing, I am not in a position to persuade anybody. I think that our present is explained by the context of the past, and that you can't understand the present without looking at the past. Now the past is a complex thing that can't be reduced to some simple formula, I still believe that you can still learn out of it, because human nature didn't change to much throughout the ages. Our reality may be quite different from what it used to be, but we are not essentially different from our ancestors, so we can still learn from them (hope that helps). Our experience is similar to the experience of our ancestors, we are part of the same process - it may be distant, but it is still relevant (in my opinion), the accumulated experience of past generations is of great value (because we tend to repeat the mistakes of the past) I know that I did repeat the same statement several times with variations, but it is as far as I can get. Also: If something prevailed throughout time, against all odds, then that's pretty impressive to me.
  - throwawayjewish 9y ago
    Thank you, that is an interesting way of putting it!
  - TangoTrotFox 9y ago
thewellofjake 9y ago
In the words of Benjamin Disraeli "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon"
- hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
  How is that any different from saying, "while [black person]'s ancestors were throwing spears at each other, mine were respectable businessmen"?
  - kolpa 9y ago
    It's not. It's maybe even worse than racist, because most of Disraeli's ancestors probably weren't even members Solomon's kingdom, they likely were mostly Europeans who converted and then adopted the ancestry.
  - dullgiulio 9y ago
    Because the person who says that is part of the oppressed minority, not the other way around.
    - vokep 9y ago
      Why is that relevant to if the statement is racist? Yes there is a difference between kicking someone when they're down and kicking while down, but it is still kicking.
      - avshyz 9y ago
        Disraeli said that in the quarrel as a response to O'Connell who've referred to Disraeli's Jewish ancestry in disparaging terms. Put things in context, mate.
- quadrangle 9y ago
  Today this follow's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law And in case anyone hasn't heard: There's reasons pride has been considered a sin. There's nothing redeeming about the emotion of pride. You can have pride in your belief about your ancestors or pride in your accomplishments. Either way, pride is not doing anything positive. There are healthier ways to feel positive about things, and pride can go the hell away, period.
Parsifal18 9y ago
I'm not sure what your father was on about. Was he trying to claim that Jews built the Ishtar Gate? The Parthenon is only a century younger, and a much more architecturally impressive structure. Yet if a Greek or other ethnic European made a similar remark about the superiority of their heritage on the basis of it, they'd be accused of racism.
bjourne 9y ago
I don't understand this infatuation with ones genetic material. Given that I am blond and blue-eyed and live in Scandinavia, I'm probably just as much Vikingish as you are Jewish. Should I be proud of being a Viking? If your objection is that the Vikings were horrible people that just pillaged stuff. Then I agree, but the ancient Israelites weren't that kind to women and slaves either. If your objection is that the culture didn't survive. Well, the good parts, Christmas, Midsummer (the traditions are pre-Christian) and binge-drinking did... Even if ancient Israelite culture is objectively superior to Viking culture, you didn't create it, so why be proud of it? It's like being proud of being the heir of a billionaire. :p
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  You are using "genetic material" and culture interchangeably.
- gargarplex 9y ago
  It's not just genetic material. It's a combination of genetic material and culture. I don't know if you're Swedish or what, but I can tell you most Swedes I've met love their Swedish culture. Their King (though he's purely symbolic). The lagom of it all. And you know well of the political movement in Sweden to restrict the definition of "Swedish" to those who have obvious Swedish ancestry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjand84BBKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjand84BBKM
  - bjourne 9y ago
    But when you write "it's a combination of ..." do you mean we must compare? Must I prove that a large enough percentage of Viking culture did survive to be able to call myself Vikingish? That seem arbitrary. Yes, I know of the political movements you talk about. Yes, I think you can be grateful of being born in one of the best places on earth. Yes, you can enjoy have physical appearance that most women of the world consider very attractive. But being proud of it? Nah...
- User23 9y ago
  It's an adaptive behavior that increases evolutionary fitness.
Pigo 9y ago
I grew up in a church, so I was raised to revere the Jewish people and honor their relationship. My step-father now is Jewish and I can never get over that he is related to the people I grew up hearing about. I've been told some Jewish people actually know which tribe of Isreal their people came from, but I never knew how true that is. If it is, I think it's incredible that they could trace their lineage back to Abraham.
jacquesm 9y ago
Why be proud of a thing that happened to you by chance? I was born into a particular family but that's nothing to be proud of, it wasn't exactly my achievement. I'm Dutch by birth, but I'm not proud to be Dutch. I'm a European by birth, but it doesn't make me proud either. What I an be proud about is those things that I've achieved that were not 'normal' for a person of my birth station and privilege level. (And that's not a whole lot, given the fact that I was born in one of the wealthiest countries in the world as a 'white male' which means I had just about all the lottery cards picked just so.)
- avshyz 9y ago
  Is there anything wrong with being patriotic? By being proud of your culture? Yeah, I puff my chest when I think of my personal achievements. But that doesn't mean I don't feel a sense of pride when I read I piece of text written thousand years ago in the same language I speak today. There's nothing wrong with being proud of being a part of something, as long you don't disparage others. But I guess it's easier to think in collective terms when you're born of a minority that for the larger part of history was oppressed.

cik 9y ago

מועדים לשמחה

MichaelMoser123 9y ago
מועדים וזמנים לששון
- SpeciesInvader 9y ago
  חג כשר ושמח
  - MichaelMoser123 9y ago
    תודה אחי
  - jakemor 9y ago
    !חג שמח
    - avremel 9y ago
      א גוט מועד!
      - throwawayjewis2 9y ago
        !א גוט יום טוב

oblio 9y ago

Don't take this the wrong way, but from the outside, this seems condescending. And secondly it's important to remember your roots, but in my opinion the focus was wrong (or maybe the conversation included this aspect, you just didn't present it): we were around back when Berlin was a swamp and we're still around now, prosperous and developed. In my eyes that's the real achievement! (look at Iraq, Iran, Egypt, even Greece or India to some degree)

MichaelMoser123 9y ago
I don't see any condescension (it doesn't diminish the present greatness of the great capitals at all), it is a factual observation (also you might need a sense of humour to see the irony on the part of what used to be a persecuted minority, after all - and I used to be in east Berlin before the frigging wall came down)
- oblio 9y ago
  Could be. What I do know is that I have Greek friends who express the same feeling and they weren't a persecuted minority. There's a certain hubris about nationalities with a rich past. It's not necessarily bad, but it's still hubris :)
  - lardo 9y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Greece
    - oblio 9y ago
      Dude, I’m Romanian, I know about the Ottomans. Greeks were still the majority in Greece and they were a well regarded minority in the empire. They were persecuted after WW1 (see the population exchanges and the Smyrna massacre). But Greeks don’t view themselves as a persecuted minority, historically. It’s all about the mindset and self-perception.
  - jjgreen 9y ago

throwawayjewish 9y ago

I was born Jewish and was pretty religious for most of my life, but even when I was religious I never understood why we should be proud of this, or why this is a good thing in and of itself. I would be really interested if you could explain more your way of thinking about it, because to me when my father explains that we should be proud of having the same meal our ancestors did Xthousand years ago I don't feel impressed in the least. Instead, it just feels like a long streak of spreading a meme. People often get surprised when I tell them I don't consider myself Jewish anymore or that I don't intend to bring up any children I have Jewish. They often cite their surprise to the fact that Judaism has a long ancestral history. And I really just can't understand this frame of thinking that says Judaism is good because it's been going on for long. So I would be interested if you could explain why this impresses you :)

MichaelMoser123 9y ago
Its a personal thing, I am not in a position to persuade anybody. I think that our present is explained by the context of the past, and that you can't understand the present without looking at the past. Now the past is a complex thing that can't be reduced to some simple formula, I still believe that you can still learn out of it, because human nature didn't change to much throughout the ages. Our reality may be quite different from what it used to be, but we are not essentially different from our ancestors, so we can still learn from them (hope that helps). Our experience is similar to the experience of our ancestors, we are part of the same process - it may be distant, but it is still relevant (in my opinion), the accumulated experience of past generations is of great value (because we tend to repeat the mistakes of the past) I know that I did repeat the same statement several times with variations, but it is as far as I can get. Also: If something prevailed throughout time, against all odds, then that's pretty impressive to me.
- throwawayjewish 9y ago
  Thank you, that is an interesting way of putting it!
- TangoTrotFox 9y ago

thewellofjake 9y ago

In the words of Benjamin Disraeli "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were priests in the temple of Solomon"

hfdgiutdryg 9y ago
How is that any different from saying, "while [black person]'s ancestors were throwing spears at each other, mine were respectable businessmen"?
- kolpa 9y ago
  It's not. It's maybe even worse than racist, because most of Disraeli's ancestors probably weren't even members Solomon's kingdom, they likely were mostly Europeans who converted and then adopted the ancestry.
- dullgiulio 9y ago
  Because the person who says that is part of the oppressed minority, not the other way around.
  - vokep 9y ago
    Why is that relevant to if the statement is racist? Yes there is a difference between kicking someone when they're down and kicking while down, but it is still kicking.
    - avshyz 9y ago
      Disraeli said that in the quarrel as a response to O'Connell who've referred to Disraeli's Jewish ancestry in disparaging terms. Put things in context, mate.
quadrangle 9y ago
Today this follow's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law And in case anyone hasn't heard: There's reasons pride has been considered a sin. There's nothing redeeming about the emotion of pride. You can have pride in your belief about your ancestors or pride in your accomplishments. Either way, pride is not doing anything positive. There are healthier ways to feel positive about things, and pride can go the hell away, period.

Parsifal18 9y ago

I'm not sure what your father was on about. Was he trying to claim that Jews built the Ishtar Gate? The Parthenon is only a century younger, and a much more architecturally impressive structure. Yet if a Greek or other ethnic European made a similar remark about the superiority of their heritage on the basis of it, they'd be accused of racism.

bjourne 9y ago

I don't understand this infatuation with ones genetic material. Given that I am blond and blue-eyed and live in Scandinavia, I'm probably just as much Vikingish as you are Jewish. Should I be proud of being a Viking? If your objection is that the Vikings were horrible people that just pillaged stuff. Then I agree, but the ancient Israelites weren't that kind to women and slaves either. If your objection is that the culture didn't survive. Well, the good parts, Christmas, Midsummer (the traditions are pre-Christian) and binge-drinking did... Even if ancient Israelite culture is objectively superior to Viking culture, you didn't create it, so why be proud of it? It's like being proud of being the heir of a billionaire. :p

ForRealsies 9y ago
You are using "genetic material" and culture interchangeably.
gargarplex 9y ago
It's not just genetic material. It's a combination of genetic material and culture. I don't know if you're Swedish or what, but I can tell you most Swedes I've met love their Swedish culture. Their King (though he's purely symbolic). The lagom of it all. And you know well of the political movement in Sweden to restrict the definition of "Swedish" to those who have obvious Swedish ancestry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjand84BBKM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjand84BBKM
- bjourne 9y ago
  But when you write "it's a combination of ..." do you mean we must compare? Must I prove that a large enough percentage of Viking culture did survive to be able to call myself Vikingish? That seem arbitrary. Yes, I know of the political movements you talk about. Yes, I think you can be grateful of being born in one of the best places on earth. Yes, you can enjoy have physical appearance that most women of the world consider very attractive. But being proud of it? Nah...
User23 9y ago
It's an adaptive behavior that increases evolutionary fitness.

Pigo 9y ago

I grew up in a church, so I was raised to revere the Jewish people and honor their relationship. My step-father now is Jewish and I can never get over that he is related to the people I grew up hearing about. I've been told some Jewish people actually know which tribe of Isreal their people came from, but I never knew how true that is. If it is, I think it's incredible that they could trace their lineage back to Abraham.

jacquesm 9y ago

Why be proud of a thing that happened to you by chance? I was born into a particular family but that's nothing to be proud of, it wasn't exactly my achievement. I'm Dutch by birth, but I'm not proud to be Dutch. I'm a European by birth, but it doesn't make me proud either. What I an be proud about is those things that I've achieved that were not 'normal' for a person of my birth station and privilege level. (And that's not a whole lot, given the fact that I was born in one of the wealthiest countries in the world as a 'white male' which means I had just about all the lottery cards picked just so.)

avshyz 9y ago
Is there anything wrong with being patriotic? By being proud of your culture? Yeah, I puff my chest when I think of my personal achievements. But that doesn't mean I don't feel a sense of pride when I read I piece of text written thousand years ago in the same language I speak today. There's nothing wrong with being proud of being a part of something, as long you don't disparage others. But I guess it's easier to think in collective terms when you're born of a minority that for the larger part of history was oppressed.