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OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this

by ccalf 9y ago

OK but if by saving 1000 lives a year required as a side-effect that you personally be among the fatalities, would that be OK for you? I hope not. Think of this as a technical corner case; so, the question is the soundness of the analysis—for example, the distribution of deaths and what that means for safety—and not letting various facile logic get in the way of that work.

fsloth 9y ago
That's not really a very good argument. If you change parameters in a complex system then the odds are that you are going to find pathologies in new places. People claim seatbelts have caused lots of deaths, and I'm sure at least a percentage of these claims are fair ([0]). I still think it's safer to drive a car with a seatbelt rather than without. [0] http://www.againstseatbeltcompulsion.org/victims.htm http://www.againstseatbeltcompulsion.org/victims.htm
emiliobumachar 9y ago
The downside of a laissez-faire policy towards self-driving cars could fall on anyone, but so does the upside. Again, a lot of human driven car crash victims have done nothing wrong and were victimized pretty much at random. Run over, rear-ended, T-crashed at an intersection, and could not reasonably have done anything to prevent it.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  >> Again, a lot of human driven car crash victims have done nothing wrong and were victimized pretty much at random. But all self-driving car victims (will) have done nothing wrong. Whethere they were riding in the car that killed them or not, they were not in control of it, so they 're not responsible for the decision that led to their deaths. Unless the decision to go for a walk or a cycle, or to ride on a car makes you responsible for dying in a car accident?
Sumaso 9y ago
So you'd rather 1000 other people die, rather than yourself? What kind of logical exercise is this?
seatotree 9y ago
There is a simple solution for this. If you think you are an above average driver, don't use autopilot.
- oldsj 9y ago
  Until self driving cars start crashing in to you
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - EADGBE 9y ago
    As long as your car doesn't look like an broken road barrier you should be good.
sokoloff 9y ago
Let’s imagine that auto-driving tech saves 2001 gross lives per year and kills 1001 people who wouldn’t have died in an all human driving world, for a net of 1000 lives saved. I think that’s a win, even if I now have an even statistical chance to be in the 1001 and no chance to be in the 2001. Requiring that I be in 1001 is not ok, no more than requiring I donate all my organs tomorrow. Allowing that I might be in the 1001 is ok, just a registering for organ donation is.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  >> Let’s imagine that auto-driving tech saves 2001 gross lives per year and kills 1001 people who wouldn’t have died in an all human driving world, for a net of 1000 lives saved. You're saying that auto-driving would save the lives of 1000 people who would have died without it, by causing the death of another 1001 that wouldn't have died if it wasn't for auto-driving? So you're basically exchanging the lives of the 1001 and the 1000? That looks a lot less of a no-brainer than your comment makes it sound. Not to mention, the 1001 people who wouldn't have died if it wasn't for auto-driving would most probably prefer to not have to die. How is it that their opinion doesn't matter?
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    It saves 2001 (not 1000 as you said, or perhaps said differently, I'm exchanging the lives of 1001 to preserve the lives of the 2001). It kills 1001. Net lives saved = 1000. > How is it that their opinion doesn't matter? The 2001 who are saved by auto-driving were also most probably not interested in dying. How is it that their opinion doesn't matter? It's a trolley problem[1]. Individual people have been killed by seatbelts, yet you probably think it's OK that we have seatbelts because many more people have been saved and/or had their injuries reduced. Individual people have been killed by airbags, yet you probably think it's OK that we have them. Many people have been killed by obesity-related mortality by shifting walkers and bikers into cars, yet you probably think it's OK that we have cars. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

by ccalf 9y ago

fsloth 9y ago

That's not really a very good argument. If you change parameters in a complex system then the odds are that you are going to find pathologies in new places. People claim seatbelts have caused lots of deaths, and I'm sure at least a percentage of these claims are fair ([0]). I still think it's safer to drive a car with a seatbelt rather than without. [0] http://www.againstseatbeltcompulsion.org/victims.htm http://www.againstseatbeltcompulsion.org/victims.htm

emiliobumachar 9y ago

The downside of a laissez-faire policy towards self-driving cars could fall on anyone, but so does the upside. Again, a lot of human driven car crash victims have done nothing wrong and were victimized pretty much at random. Run over, rear-ended, T-crashed at an intersection, and could not reasonably have done anything to prevent it.

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Again, a lot of human driven car crash victims have done nothing wrong and were victimized pretty much at random. But all self-driving car victims (will) have done nothing wrong. Whethere they were riding in the car that killed them or not, they were not in control of it, so they 're not responsible for the decision that led to their deaths. Unless the decision to go for a walk or a cycle, or to ride on a car makes you responsible for dying in a car accident?

Sumaso 9y ago

So you'd rather 1000 other people die, rather than yourself? What kind of logical exercise is this?

seatotree 9y ago

There is a simple solution for this. If you think you are an above average driver, don't use autopilot.

oldsj 9y ago
Until self driving cars start crashing in to you
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- EADGBE 9y ago
  As long as your car doesn't look like an broken road barrier you should be good.

sokoloff 9y ago

Let’s imagine that auto-driving tech saves 2001 gross lives per year and kills 1001 people who wouldn’t have died in an all human driving world, for a net of 1000 lives saved. I think that’s a win, even if I now have an even statistical chance to be in the 1001 and no chance to be in the 2001. Requiring that I be in 1001 is not ok, no more than requiring I donate all my organs tomorrow. Allowing that I might be in the 1001 is ok, just a registering for organ donation is.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
>> Let’s imagine that auto-driving tech saves 2001 gross lives per year and kills 1001 people who wouldn’t have died in an all human driving world, for a net of 1000 lives saved. You're saying that auto-driving would save the lives of 1000 people who would have died without it, by causing the death of another 1001 that wouldn't have died if it wasn't for auto-driving? So you're basically exchanging the lives of the 1001 and the 1000? That looks a lot less of a no-brainer than your comment makes it sound. Not to mention, the 1001 people who wouldn't have died if it wasn't for auto-driving would most probably prefer to not have to die. How is it that their opinion doesn't matter?
- sokoloff 9y ago
  It saves 2001 (not 1000 as you said, or perhaps said differently, I'm exchanging the lives of 1001 to preserve the lives of the 2001). It kills 1001. Net lives saved = 1000. > How is it that their opinion doesn't matter? The 2001 who are saved by auto-driving were also most probably not interested in dying. How is it that their opinion doesn't matter? It's a trolley problem[1]. Individual people have been killed by seatbelts, yet you probably think it's OK that we have seatbelts because many more people have been saved and/or had their injuries reduced. Individual people have been killed by airbags, yet you probably think it's OK that we have them. Many people have been killed by obesity-related mortality by shifting walkers and bikers into cars, yet you probably think it's OK that we have cars. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem