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Well, right now they couldn't do that because the Apple hardware platform doesn't allow it, and because the PC platform doesn't either any attempt on Apple's be

by mjg59 9y ago

Well, right now they couldn't do that because the Apple hardware platform doesn't allow it, and because the PC platform doesn't either any attempt on Apple's behalf to do so would result in gamers abandoning Apple?

dcow 9y ago
What do you mean? When you execute code on iOS you are executing signed binaries that the kernel verifies at install time and then user specific encrypted pages that the kernel decrypts/verifies as they're mapped into memory at execution time. I feel like we are not on the same (metaphoric) page. What I'm saying is this already exists today. iPhone hardware can attest to the integrity of the running system because Apple practices secure boot and maintains a PKI (supported by the kernel and TPM) responsible for verifying the integrity of software running on its system. Apple can say to a Blizzard "game" with certainty (barring security vulns), "there is no unauthorized software running on this system". And as far as Apple is concerned wrt their platform, Blizzard is just another app developer in their ecosystem. They don't have to pay a special "attestation premium".
- mjg59 9y ago
  And so can Nintendo on a Switch, but Apple can't do that on a Mac. This is clearly a theoretically possible scenario, the question is whether it's practical on something that's sold as a general purpose computing platform (which iOS devices aren't)
  - dcow 9y ago
    Sorry I'm not trying to split hairs. I don't see why it wouldn't be practical on a macOS device (agreed that on a Mac today this is not possible based on the state of publicly available macOS software). Apple has been slowly moving that direction and IMO the only reason they haven't dialed it up to 11 is because they don't want to break everything including users' workflows. But they could release a state of the art macOS laptop ~tomorrow that squeaks like iOS from a security angle. Anyway you're right that's besides the point now. My original point (rephrased to Linux) was that a desktop leveraging secure boot plus the recent work to harden the boundary between kernel and root plus something like (as you pointed out in the other thread) IMA could, I think, meet the original commenter's requirements.
- viraptor 9y ago
  > Apple can say to a Blizzard "game" with certainty (...), "there is no unauthorized software running on this system". What does that assertion even mean unless you completely lock down app signing keys though? Sure - this system doesn't run any unauthorised software, only "foobar test" signed by a valid developer key; everything is fine. It works for consoles, because you won't have the trusted signing keys.

by mjg59 9y ago

dcow 9y ago

What do you mean? When you execute code on iOS you are executing signed binaries that the kernel verifies at install time and then user specific encrypted pages that the kernel decrypts/verifies as they're mapped into memory at execution time. I feel like we are not on the same (metaphoric) page. What I'm saying is this already exists today. iPhone hardware can attest to the integrity of the running system because Apple practices secure boot and maintains a PKI (supported by the kernel and TPM) responsible for verifying the integrity of software running on its system. Apple can say to a Blizzard "game" with certainty (barring security vulns), "there is no unauthorized software running on this system". And as far as Apple is concerned wrt their platform, Blizzard is just another app developer in their ecosystem. They don't have to pay a special "attestation premium".

mjg59 9y ago
And so can Nintendo on a Switch, but Apple can't do that on a Mac. This is clearly a theoretically possible scenario, the question is whether it's practical on something that's sold as a general purpose computing platform (which iOS devices aren't)
- dcow 9y ago
  Sorry I'm not trying to split hairs. I don't see why it wouldn't be practical on a macOS device (agreed that on a Mac today this is not possible based on the state of publicly available macOS software). Apple has been slowly moving that direction and IMO the only reason they haven't dialed it up to 11 is because they don't want to break everything including users' workflows. But they could release a state of the art macOS laptop ~tomorrow that squeaks like iOS from a security angle. Anyway you're right that's besides the point now. My original point (rephrased to Linux) was that a desktop leveraging secure boot plus the recent work to harden the boundary between kernel and root plus something like (as you pointed out in the other thread) IMA could, I think, meet the original commenter's requirements.
viraptor 9y ago
> Apple can say to a Blizzard "game" with certainty (...), "there is no unauthorized software running on this system". What does that assertion even mean unless you completely lock down app signing keys though? Sure - this system doesn't run any unauthorised software, only "foobar test" signed by a valid developer key; everything is fine. It works for consoles, because you won't have the trusted signing keys.