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> And also the idea that an automatic driver is easier to improve over time (skewing the trade-off better and better) than human drivers. Which of course will s

> And also the idea that an automatic driver is easier to improve over time (skewing the trade-off better and better) than human drivers. Which of course will snowball when reliance on automation keeps making drivers worse than better, and at some point you're past the point of no return. I really hope it does get to the point were all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate to a much higher extent and traffic could potentially be much more efficient and safe.

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
> all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate Say, like computers on the Internet (information highway)? Rings a bell.
Piskvorrr 9y ago
"Hello, fellow robot car, I am also a robot car, not a wifi pineapple notatall nooosir, and all lanes ahead are blocked. But hey, there's a shortcut, just turn sharp to the right. Yes, your map says you're on a bridge, but don't worry, I have just driven through there, trust me." Nothing could possibly go wrong and the idea of evil actors in such a network is absurd - right? Your idea reminds me of the 1990s Internet - cf today's, where every other node is potentially malicious.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  There's no reason such a system would have to be engineered to be totally trusting. The car, in that situation, would likely be set up to say "nope, my sensors say that's not safe" and hand off to the driver or reject the input. Use it just for additional input to err on the side of safety. If the car ahead says "hey, I'm braking at maximum" and my car's sensors show it's starting to slow down, I can apply more immediate braking power than if I'd just detected the initial slight slowdown. Or, "I'm a car, don't hit me!" pings might help where my car thinks it's a radar artifact, like the Tesla crash last year where it hit the semi crossing the highway.
  - mrguyorama 9y ago
    >The car, in that situation, would likely be set up to say "nope, my sensors say that's not safe" and hand off to the driver or reject the input. You realize you say that in a thread about a car's sensors failing to understand it was in an unsafe condition (again), right?
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      You realize that the comments in a thread may head off in a related but distinct direction, right? We're discussing car-to-car mesh networks being used to provide self-driving cars with more decision-making input.
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    That last part is actually scariest: blame the victim, yay. Unless they can prove they had a functional, powered, up to date, compatible I'm-a-car responder, it's their own damn fault for being invisible to the SDV. How about "I'm a human, don't hit me"? Does that also sound like a good idea (RIP Elaine Herzberg)? In other words, "all other road users should accommodate my needs just to make life a bit easier for me" is a terrible idea.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      I think that's a needlessly uncharitable interpretation. Having cars communicate information to each other has the potential to be an additional safety measure. It's like adding reflectors to bikes - adding them wasn't victim blaming, it was just an additional thing that could be added to reduce accidents.
      - Piskvorrr 8y ago
        Sure, I understand that you're proposing it as an improvement , and it would even be an improvement - but using this for scapegoating will happen, as long as there are multiple parties to any accident; we have seen this in the last Uber crash ("find anything pointing anywhere but at Uber"), or in any bike crash ("yeah, the truck has smashed into him at 60 MPH and spread him over two city blocks, but he's at fault for not wearing a helmet - it would have saved him!!!").
- zip1234 9y ago
  Also, what's to stop evil actors right now? There is a road near me with the bridge out. Anybody could just go remove the warning signs. Why don't they?
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    Obvious to casual observers, non-targettable, hard to set up/tear down quickly.
simion314 9y ago
>I really hope it does get to the point were all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate to a much higher extent and traffic could potentially be much more efficient and safe. I think you can make some conclusions from the current software industry and see how many defects are deployed daily, I see Tesla and Uber have same defects as any SV startup and not as NASA, having this starups controlling all the cars on the road sounds a terrible idea.

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago

> all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate Say, like computers on the Internet (information highway)? Rings a bell.

Piskvorrr 9y ago

"Hello, fellow robot car, I am also a robot car, not a wifi pineapple notatall nooosir, and all lanes ahead are blocked. But hey, there's a shortcut, just turn sharp to the right. Yes, your map says you're on a bridge, but don't worry, I have just driven through there, trust me." Nothing could possibly go wrong and the idea of evil actors in such a network is absurd - right? Your idea reminds me of the 1990s Internet - cf today's, where every other node is potentially malicious.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ceejayoz 9y ago
There's no reason such a system would have to be engineered to be totally trusting. The car, in that situation, would likely be set up to say "nope, my sensors say that's not safe" and hand off to the driver or reject the input. Use it just for additional input to err on the side of safety. If the car ahead says "hey, I'm braking at maximum" and my car's sensors show it's starting to slow down, I can apply more immediate braking power than if I'd just detected the initial slight slowdown. Or, "I'm a car, don't hit me!" pings might help where my car thinks it's a radar artifact, like the Tesla crash last year where it hit the semi crossing the highway.
- mrguyorama 9y ago
  >The car, in that situation, would likely be set up to say "nope, my sensors say that's not safe" and hand off to the driver or reject the input. You realize you say that in a thread about a car's sensors failing to understand it was in an unsafe condition (again), right?
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    You realize that the comments in a thread may head off in a related but distinct direction, right? We're discussing car-to-car mesh networks being used to provide self-driving cars with more decision-making input.
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  That last part is actually scariest: blame the victim, yay. Unless they can prove they had a functional, powered, up to date, compatible I'm-a-car responder, it's their own damn fault for being invisible to the SDV. How about "I'm a human, don't hit me"? Does that also sound like a good idea (RIP Elaine Herzberg)? In other words, "all other road users should accommodate my needs just to make life a bit easier for me" is a terrible idea.
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    I think that's a needlessly uncharitable interpretation. Having cars communicate information to each other has the potential to be an additional safety measure. It's like adding reflectors to bikes - adding them wasn't victim blaming, it was just an additional thing that could be added to reduce accidents.
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      Sure, I understand that you're proposing it as an improvement , and it would even be an improvement - but using this for scapegoating will happen, as long as there are multiple parties to any accident; we have seen this in the last Uber crash ("find anything pointing anywhere but at Uber"), or in any bike crash ("yeah, the truck has smashed into him at 60 MPH and spread him over two city blocks, but he's at fault for not wearing a helmet - it would have saved him!!!").
zip1234 9y ago
Also, what's to stop evil actors right now? There is a road near me with the bridge out. Anybody could just go remove the warning signs. Why don't they?
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  Obvious to casual observers, non-targettable, hard to set up/tear down quickly.

simion314 9y ago

>I really hope it does get to the point were all drivers are automatic and interconnected. Cars could cooperate to a much higher extent and traffic could potentially be much more efficient and safe. I think you can make some conclusions from the current software industry and see how many defects are deployed daily, I see Tesla and Uber have same defects as any SV startup and not as NASA, having this starups controlling all the cars on the road sounds a terrible idea.