5 ms·

now imagine the same resume being sent out to a number of companies: one with a white sounding name and one with a black sounding name. And imagine finding out

by nova22033 9y ago

now imagine the same resume being sent out to a number of companies: one with a white sounding name and one with a black sounding name. And imagine finding out that the same resume with the white sounding name gets more call backs? I'm going to assume it's the same thing if you replace white with east asian or south asian.

vowelless 9y ago
Now imagine that you both may actually be talking about orthogonal issues....
- unclebucknasty 9y ago
  Can you explain why you think these are orthogonal?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
jostmey 9y ago
Only imperfect solutions for an imperfect world
cdiddy2 9y ago
That doesn't mean that having quotas for different races is the right way to solve that though
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
zeth___ 9y ago
Now imagine the same thing again, but this time in the interview where one candidate has a mid western accent, and the other a deep southern one. People use race as a proxy for class. But it isn't the only thing. And the more people pretend race is the deciding factor, and not class, the more shitty laws and rules we have in place trying to fix a symptom of a disease everyone wants to pretend isn't there.
- tylerhou 9y ago
  Race is still hugely important when it comes to success, even after adjusting for class. See: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-c... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-race-and-success-how-your-school-district-compares.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-... A quote from the first article: > “One of the most popular liberal post-racial ideas is the idea that the fundamental problem is class and not race, and clearly this study explodes that idea,” said Ibram Kendi, a professor and director of the Antiracist Research and Policy Center at American University. “But for whatever reason, we’re unwilling to stare racism in the face.”
  - zeth___ 9y ago
    I've yet to meet any of these mythical post racial liberals. And your own sources disprove your claim. Black women earn more than white women. At best you're showing that sexism matters more than racism. But it's only sexism when it happens to women, just like it's only racism when it happens to blacks. At any rate, anyone who claims race trumps class has not been paying attention: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833... Unless of course you think the US has suddenly become racist against middle aged white men? Instead of the simpler explanation that race was a good proxy for class from 1940 to 1980 and has completely broken down since, but people whose livelihoods depend on it peddle it like economists paddle trickle down economics.
    - tylerhou 9y ago
      > I've yet to meet any of these mythical post racial liberals. It seems that you are one, since you're claiming that class matters more than race. I.e. you claim that race doesn't matter very much, which suggests that you are post-racial. > Black women earn more than white women. At best you're showing that sexism matters more than racism. But it's only sexism when it happens to women, just like it's only racism when it happens to blacks. If the issue was purely of sexism you'd see white males and black males with the same socioeconomic backgrounds have equivalent social mobility because "race doesn't matter". But article [1] refutes that with a chart that clearly shows a huge difference in social mobility between white males and black males of the same background. Sexism is when men aren't paid the same amount as women. That's not the same as a trend between males that shows differences in pay which disappears when looking at women. In other words, people are less racist towards black women compared to black men. That's a problem with racism, not sexism (unless you're suggesting that we should be more racist towards black women so that we aren't as sexist towards black men). > anyone who claims race trumps class has not been paying attention: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833.. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833.... This article doesn't support your point. In particular, it supports a claim that mortality rates are rising for middle class white males because their prosperity has decreased in the last few years. It doesn't even control for background. That is different from my point, which says that when controlling for background, race affects socioeconomic mobility. In fact, your sources support my claim. The NPR article mentions how middle class blacks haven't felt an increase in mortality rates. That suggests that there's something different about people from different races - maybe that middle class blacks barely had an increase in prosperity to begin with.
unclebucknasty 9y ago
The thing about GP's statement is that it's premised on the idea that it doesn't work in reverse: i.e. that the existing systemic racism that these policies are intended to offset don't likewise rob us of our best and brightest. And, of course, that idea itself rests on the notion of an inherent superiority on one-side. To be clear, I don't believe that's part of the conscious thinking, but I do believe this oversight is illustrative of the kinds of blind-spots that tacitly guide a lot of thinking on these issues. That's an unpopular thing to say but that doesn't make it any less true.

vowelless 9y ago

Now imagine that you both may actually be talking about orthogonal issues....

unclebucknasty 9y ago
Can you explain why you think these are orthogonal?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

jostmey 9y ago

Only imperfect solutions for an imperfect world

cdiddy2 9y ago

That doesn't mean that having quotas for different races is the right way to solve that though

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

zeth___ 9y ago

Now imagine the same thing again, but this time in the interview where one candidate has a mid western accent, and the other a deep southern one. People use race as a proxy for class. But it isn't the only thing. And the more people pretend race is the deciding factor, and not class, the more shitty laws and rules we have in place trying to fix a symptom of a disease everyone wants to pretend isn't there.

tylerhou 9y ago
Race is still hugely important when it comes to success, even after adjusting for class. See: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-c... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-race-and-success-how-your-school-district-compares.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/04/29/upshot/money-... A quote from the first article: > “One of the most popular liberal post-racial ideas is the idea that the fundamental problem is class and not race, and clearly this study explodes that idea,” said Ibram Kendi, a professor and director of the Antiracist Research and Policy Center at American University. “But for whatever reason, we’re unwilling to stare racism in the face.”
- zeth___ 9y ago
  I've yet to meet any of these mythical post racial liberals. And your own sources disprove your claim. Black women earn more than white women. At best you're showing that sexism matters more than racism. But it's only sexism when it happens to women, just like it's only racism when it happens to blacks. At any rate, anyone who claims race trumps class has not been paying attention: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/521083335/the-forces-driving-middle-aged-white-peoples-deaths-of-despair https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833... Unless of course you think the US has suddenly become racist against middle aged white men? Instead of the simpler explanation that race was a good proxy for class from 1940 to 1980 and has completely broken down since, but people whose livelihoods depend on it peddle it like economists paddle trickle down economics.
  - tylerhou 9y ago
    > I've yet to meet any of these mythical post racial liberals. It seems that you are one, since you're claiming that class matters more than race. I.e. you claim that race doesn't matter very much, which suggests that you are post-racial. > Black women earn more than white women. At best you're showing that sexism matters more than racism. But it's only sexism when it happens to women, just like it's only racism when it happens to blacks. If the issue was purely of sexism you'd see white males and black males with the same socioeconomic backgrounds have equivalent social mobility because "race doesn't matter". But article [1] refutes that with a chart that clearly shows a huge difference in social mobility between white males and black males of the same background. Sexism is when men aren't paid the same amount as women. That's not the same as a trend between males that shows differences in pay which disappears when looking at women. In other words, people are less racist towards black women compared to black men. That's a problem with racism, not sexism (unless you're suggesting that we should be more racist towards black women so that we aren't as sexist towards black men). > anyone who claims race trumps class has not been paying attention: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833.. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/03/23/5210833.... This article doesn't support your point. In particular, it supports a claim that mortality rates are rising for middle class white males because their prosperity has decreased in the last few years. It doesn't even control for background. That is different from my point, which says that when controlling for background, race affects socioeconomic mobility. In fact, your sources support my claim. The NPR article mentions how middle class blacks haven't felt an increase in mortality rates. That suggests that there's something different about people from different races - maybe that middle class blacks barely had an increase in prosperity to begin with.

unclebucknasty 9y ago

The thing about GP's statement is that it's premised on the idea that it doesn't work in reverse: i.e. that the existing systemic racism that these policies are intended to offset don't likewise rob us of our best and brightest. And, of course, that idea itself rests on the notion of an inherent superiority on one-side. To be clear, I don't believe that's part of the conscious thinking, but I do believe this oversight is illustrative of the kinds of blind-spots that tacitly guide a lot of thinking on these issues. That's an unpopular thing to say but that doesn't make it any less true.