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> Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? It's simple - unions can force you to join, take your money, and give it to political causes you don't suppo

> Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? It's simple - unions can force you to join, take your money, and give it to political causes you don't support. And if you're in the minority, you don't have any say in it. See Abood v. Detroit Board of Education and several more recent cases (Friedrichs v. CTA, Janus v AFSCME). Picture this - if you were a minority opinion holder in a Google Union, and the majority of the members decided to strike to protest Google's work with the Pentagon, you would be subject to union discipline, including fines and lawsuits. Basically, unions are fine as long as you agree with everything they say and do...

kiliantics 9y ago
There are many different structures that unions can have so what you described isn't necessarily how it has to work. That said, even if it is how it worked, you would still be better off on average than if you weren't in a union.
confounded 9y ago
Sure, but by definition most employees will be in the majority on most employee issues. Few things are perfect, many things are useful. If your stance is consistently counter to that of other Google employees, then you probably have bigger problems with working at Google than the existence of a union. Being in a union doesn’t preclude you from shopping around; if working on drone assasinations is personally important, consumer search-engines/ad-tech might not be the most fertile ground. But for the employees who do work on search-engines/ad-tech, having a strong voice (and a credible threat) regarding whether that work subsidizes an extra-judicial assasination programs (sometimes targeting their own countrymen) seems like a fair idea to me.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  You're missing the point. What if the Google union decides to put their weight behind Trump, because he gives tax incentives to search engine companies? And if you're vehemently against Trump and his policies, then where does that leave you? Your tax dues are now being spent on supporting a political campaign that you firmly don't support. And that's the point. Unions are nothing but friction, especially for industries such as tech. I bet the employees of Google can self-organize much more efficiently without a union than with a union, and will be much more effective as well. And as I mention below, Silicon Valley is awash with employee wealth. How exactly could unions have made things better for employees than what has already been accomplished without the help of a single union?
  - confounded 9y ago
    Thanks (sincerely) for giving your angle and engaging with my questions. I’m a relatively recent import to the US, so I haven’t had many of these conversations with Americans in tech before. Your worries sound very unlikely and theoretical to me, but I don’t imagine they’re uncommon among US tech workers.
    - pfarnsworth 9y ago
      It's not just theoretical, there is a very large split in the country because of politics. You will find many conservatives in Silicon Valley, and many liberals in the Deep South. Values are different across the board. You didn't answer my question as to how unions would benefit Silicon Valley workers. What more could unions add that haven't already been added without the help of unions?
      - confounded 9y ago
        I think we both conjure very different conceptual entities when we imagine “The Google Engineering Union”, and are at this point talking unproductively at equally valid and imaginary crossed-purposes. The truth is that neither of us know how a union at Google would change things, because it doesn’t exist.
        Consultant32452 9y ago
        I don't see how the specifics of what any union, at Google or otherwise, might support matters. The odds that you will always be philosophically aligned with your union seems very small. But if joining the union is a requirement for employment then you will be forced to fund your own philosophical opposition.
        jononor 9y ago
        Having unions be condition for employment is the cause of issues. People need free choice whether they want to be part of a union and which union they will support.

kiliantics 9y ago

There are many different structures that unions can have so what you described isn't necessarily how it has to work. That said, even if it is how it worked, you would still be better off on average than if you weren't in a union.

confounded 9y ago

Sure, but by definition most employees will be in the majority on most employee issues. Few things are perfect, many things are useful. If your stance is consistently counter to that of other Google employees, then you probably have bigger problems with working at Google than the existence of a union. Being in a union doesn’t preclude you from shopping around; if working on drone assasinations is personally important, consumer search-engines/ad-tech might not be the most fertile ground. But for the employees who do work on search-engines/ad-tech, having a strong voice (and a credible threat) regarding whether that work subsidizes an extra-judicial assasination programs (sometimes targeting their own countrymen) seems like a fair idea to me.

pfarnsworth 9y ago
You're missing the point. What if the Google union decides to put their weight behind Trump, because he gives tax incentives to search engine companies? And if you're vehemently against Trump and his policies, then where does that leave you? Your tax dues are now being spent on supporting a political campaign that you firmly don't support. And that's the point. Unions are nothing but friction, especially for industries such as tech. I bet the employees of Google can self-organize much more efficiently without a union than with a union, and will be much more effective as well. And as I mention below, Silicon Valley is awash with employee wealth. How exactly could unions have made things better for employees than what has already been accomplished without the help of a single union?
- confounded 9y ago
  Thanks (sincerely) for giving your angle and engaging with my questions. I’m a relatively recent import to the US, so I haven’t had many of these conversations with Americans in tech before. Your worries sound very unlikely and theoretical to me, but I don’t imagine they’re uncommon among US tech workers.
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    It's not just theoretical, there is a very large split in the country because of politics. You will find many conservatives in Silicon Valley, and many liberals in the Deep South. Values are different across the board. You didn't answer my question as to how unions would benefit Silicon Valley workers. What more could unions add that haven't already been added without the help of unions?
    - confounded 9y ago
      I think we both conjure very different conceptual entities when we imagine “The Google Engineering Union”, and are at this point talking unproductively at equally valid and imaginary crossed-purposes. The truth is that neither of us know how a union at Google would change things, because it doesn’t exist.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        I don't see how the specifics of what any union, at Google or otherwise, might support matters. The odds that you will always be philosophically aligned with your union seems very small. But if joining the union is a requirement for employment then you will be forced to fund your own philosophical opposition.
        jononor 9y ago
        Having unions be condition for employment is the cause of issues. People need free choice whether they want to be part of a union and which union they will support.