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The holocaust was legal, slavery was legal, segregation was legal. If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. -- @lex_looper

by banach 9y ago

Turing_Machine 9y ago
Are you seriously comparing pumping 1/2000 of the water that normally goes down the local river with the holocaust or slavery?
- oarsinsync 9y ago
  It reads more like that you shouldn’t expect the state to behave ethically if there is no legal obligation to do so, and that what is considered ethical and/or legal can change over time. Defending potentially bad behaviour solely on the basis that it’s legal behaviour may not be the best defence (outside of a court of law.)
- cowpig 9y ago
  I don't think @banach did that. The point of the quote was to point out that laws aren't necessarily right. And this point you keep making about it only being a small % of the total water isn't very convincing. I'm sure you would mind if I embezzled 1/2000th of Michigan's GDP.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    > I don't think @banach did that. I think he clearly did do that. > And this point you keep making about it only being a small % of the total water isn't very convincing. I'm sorry you don't find arithmetic convincing, but there's not much I can do about that. > I'm sure you would mind if I embezzled 1/2000th of Michigan's GDP. Now you're wandering off into non sequitur.
    - domevent 9y ago
      This is arguing dishonestly, as you presumably understand the difference between using examples to illustrate a principle, and a direct comparison. Why not just address the point, instead of being “outraged” by his presentation?
      - Turing_Machine 9y ago
        > This is arguing dishonestly No, it isn't. He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. There's dishonesty for you.
        portofcall 9y ago
        He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. There's dishonesty for you. Yes, you’re being dishonest. If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. He spelled it out in the post you’re aggressively misinterpreting and it’s decidedly not the fiction you’re peddling. So are you really losing track of what’s been said, in which case it’s time to step back, or are you being dishonest? You don’t seem like you’re losing track, so...
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        I'm not "misinterpreting" anything, aggressively or otherwise. He is lumping all states together as "the state", giving an example of some unethical states, and arguing from that that no state is ethical, or pays any attention to ethical concerns. That argument is pure garbage.
        portofcall 9y ago
        You said He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. Which simply isn’t true. He actually said outright: If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. Now, you may think that’s garbage, but you’re not free to pretend that he said completely different things he didn’t actually say. Remember how you hate inaccuracy? Do you think that what you were doing before was accurate? How about playing semantic games now with the word “state,” is that accurate? It isn’t, it’s evasive. So, what are you evading?
  - sparrish 9y ago
    Embezzling is a poor comparison. This is Nestle getting legal permits to pull from a well. A better comparison would be if you invoiced Michigan for 1/2000th of their GDP and the state and local governments paid it. In that case, I'm fine with it.
  - brandonmenc 9y ago
    > laws aren't necessarily right And neither is the public. We once needed a law and show of force against public demonstrators to let black children into schools.
- Normal_gaussian 9y ago
  They were accurately pointing out that conflating legal with ethical is not just incorrect but dangerous. They were not comparing the activities.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    > They were accurately pointing out that conflating legal with ethical is not just incorrect but dangerous. Equating the legal system of Michigan with the legal system of Nazi Germany is ludicrously incorrect.
koolba 9y ago
Segregation was mob rule. It took federal enforcement of anti discrimination laws to break it up.

The holocaust was legal, slavery was legal, segregation was legal. If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. -- @lex_looper

by banach 9y ago

The holocaust was legal, slavery was legal, segregation was legal. If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. -- @lex_looper

Turing_Machine 9y ago

Are you seriously comparing pumping 1/2000 of the water that normally goes down the local river with the holocaust or slavery?

oarsinsync 9y ago
It reads more like that you shouldn’t expect the state to behave ethically if there is no legal obligation to do so, and that what is considered ethical and/or legal can change over time. Defending potentially bad behaviour solely on the basis that it’s legal behaviour may not be the best defence (outside of a court of law.)
cowpig 9y ago
I don't think @banach did that. The point of the quote was to point out that laws aren't necessarily right. And this point you keep making about it only being a small % of the total water isn't very convincing. I'm sure you would mind if I embezzled 1/2000th of Michigan's GDP.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  > I don't think @banach did that. I think he clearly did do that. > And this point you keep making about it only being a small % of the total water isn't very convincing. I'm sorry you don't find arithmetic convincing, but there's not much I can do about that. > I'm sure you would mind if I embezzled 1/2000th of Michigan's GDP. Now you're wandering off into non sequitur.
  - domevent 9y ago
    This is arguing dishonestly, as you presumably understand the difference between using examples to illustrate a principle, and a direct comparison. Why not just address the point, instead of being “outraged” by his presentation?
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      > This is arguing dishonestly No, it isn't. He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. There's dishonesty for you.
      - portofcall 9y ago
        He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. There's dishonesty for you. Yes, you’re being dishonest. If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. He spelled it out in the post you’re aggressively misinterpreting and it’s decidedly not the fiction you’re peddling. So are you really losing track of what’s been said, in which case it’s time to step back, or are you being dishonest? You don’t seem like you’re losing track, so...
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        I'm not "misinterpreting" anything, aggressively or otherwise. He is lumping all states together as "the state", giving an example of some unethical states, and arguing from that that no state is ethical, or pays any attention to ethical concerns. That argument is pure garbage.
        portofcall 9y ago
        You said He is arguing that the government of Michigan's laws are bad because the Nazis had bad laws. Which simply isn’t true. He actually said outright: If you use the state as a metric for ethics you'll end up disappointed. Now, you may think that’s garbage, but you’re not free to pretend that he said completely different things he didn’t actually say. Remember how you hate inaccuracy? Do you think that what you were doing before was accurate? How about playing semantic games now with the word “state,” is that accurate? It isn’t, it’s evasive. So, what are you evading?
- sparrish 9y ago
  Embezzling is a poor comparison. This is Nestle getting legal permits to pull from a well. A better comparison would be if you invoiced Michigan for 1/2000th of their GDP and the state and local governments paid it. In that case, I'm fine with it.
- brandonmenc 9y ago
  > laws aren't necessarily right And neither is the public. We once needed a law and show of force against public demonstrators to let black children into schools.
Normal_gaussian 9y ago
They were accurately pointing out that conflating legal with ethical is not just incorrect but dangerous. They were not comparing the activities.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  > They were accurately pointing out that conflating legal with ethical is not just incorrect but dangerous. Equating the legal system of Michigan with the legal system of Nazi Germany is ludicrously incorrect.

koolba 9y ago

Segregation was mob rule. It took federal enforcement of anti discrimination laws to break it up.