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> In this way, the entire democratic process was corrupted. Let's call this what it is: Propaganda. Same as it always was, just with more input tailoring & c

> In this way, the entire democratic process was corrupted. Let's call this what it is: Propaganda. Same as it always was, just with more input tailoring & curating it. The biggest problem I still see here is that people expect "truth" from random Facebook posts. It's a website where basically anybody can upload anything. It's 4chan with a few more rules. Democracy works best with an informed voter base, but misinformation has been there from the beginning. I don't see how this "corrupted the democratic process" any differently than in the past where propaganda was being pushed through other common media outlets, and making money off catering to their audience's outrage and gullibilities. Judgment of information is something where voting citizens need to be personally vigilant, no matter their sources. That vigilance includes recognizing echo chambers and lack of exposure to a breadth of ideas.

DeRock 9y ago
The problem isn’t necessarily “fake news”, it’s the ability to target it. This targeting subjects each person to a completely personalized information flow. It’s one thing to have propaganda be broadcast to all, where as a society we can discuss, debate and choose to accept or reject it. With hyper targeting that process can’t exist. How am I supposed to talk to my neighbours or colleagues about current events (or “fake news”) that I don’t know exists? Democracy does not exist in isolation. We can reject the lunatic town crier, but it is much harder when he knows you deeply and is whispering in your ear.
- white-flame 9y ago
  > How am I supposed to talk to my neighbours or colleagues about current events (or “fake news”) that I don’t know exists? I don't quite understand. This reads really negatively to me, like you want to proactively judge what others privately engage in so you can "re-educate" them in case you disagree, and lack of access to that is a problem? That's a horribly authoritarian view, compared to simply broad exposure to shine light on the multiple sides of issues, to promote more informed judgment (which AI-driven content "optimization" specifically works against, as its own broader problem). > We can reject the lunatic town crier, but it is much harder when he knows you deeply and is whispering in your ear. Of course, on the receiving side of info, with somebody with deep knowledge of you trying to convince you of something, again that's vigilance and exposure on your part. We all have family members in this exact role, trying to convince us all of their viewpoint, with intimate knowledge of us. What's the difference if it's a 3rd party? What if it's you promoting your ideas, and how would you want any "safety" mechanisms affecting you? The responsibility always falls on the person receiving information, not to police other's receipt of information. The latter ends up with people arrested for googling pressure cookers.
  - not_that_noob 9y ago
    Not quite. No one is asking for personal content to be judged. But if there is a one-to-many pattern of information sharing (e.g. an organized attempt to share content) to unrelated parties, then that content should be vetted for veracity. Either FB does it, or they surface it for others to flag it.
    - white-flame 9y ago
      Why? Why do you buy into this meme of tyranny of censorship and dictated truthiness? Progress cannot happen in society without good & bad ideas freely propagating, and individual decisions to buy into them or not. Every significant cultural movement stems from a counter-cultural uprising, and these sorts of things would be swept up in the "vetting".
      - not_that_noob 9y ago
        Certainly. If it's an opinion, then that's fine. This issue is different - it's about manipulation, the willful presentation of known fake information as real news. That is not allowed in the print media by law (libel/slander) - so why should it be allowed on digital platforms?
        white-flame 9y ago
        Because Facebook is theoretically not a news media channel, with hired content creation promoting something as factual reporting. Certainly if an individual posts libelous content, they should be legally responsible for that content. But it's ostensibly not Facebook's content, as a social media provider, and international users make legal enforcement near impossible. Propaganda has always existed in opinion pieces, reporting on "rumors" to disclaim themselves, flyers outside official media channels, etc. Facebook doesn't affect any of that whether it's social media or becomes news media. Again, it's 4chan with more rules. Anybody can post anything. It's not a place of fact or truth. It's of people sharing their lives, thoughts, hobbies, opinions, notices, likes & dislikes, etc. Some extremist $SIDE-wing Facebook channel is simply posting such things. It's not an official channel for trustworthy news, it's users being social, whether that user is Aunt Flo or CNN. The core problem is that people think it's a "trustworthy" information platform (and Zuckerberg wants that trust for more customer buy-in). It's not. And it won't be, unless you remove the core personal family & friends social aspect of it.

DeRock 9y ago

The problem isn’t necessarily “fake news”, it’s the ability to target it. This targeting subjects each person to a completely personalized information flow. It’s one thing to have propaganda be broadcast to all, where as a society we can discuss, debate and choose to accept or reject it. With hyper targeting that process can’t exist. How am I supposed to talk to my neighbours or colleagues about current events (or “fake news”) that I don’t know exists? Democracy does not exist in isolation. We can reject the lunatic town crier, but it is much harder when he knows you deeply and is whispering in your ear.

white-flame 9y ago
> How am I supposed to talk to my neighbours or colleagues about current events (or “fake news”) that I don’t know exists? I don't quite understand. This reads really negatively to me, like you want to proactively judge what others privately engage in so you can "re-educate" them in case you disagree, and lack of access to that is a problem? That's a horribly authoritarian view, compared to simply broad exposure to shine light on the multiple sides of issues, to promote more informed judgment (which AI-driven content "optimization" specifically works against, as its own broader problem). > We can reject the lunatic town crier, but it is much harder when he knows you deeply and is whispering in your ear. Of course, on the receiving side of info, with somebody with deep knowledge of you trying to convince you of something, again that's vigilance and exposure on your part. We all have family members in this exact role, trying to convince us all of their viewpoint, with intimate knowledge of us. What's the difference if it's a 3rd party? What if it's you promoting your ideas, and how would you want any "safety" mechanisms affecting you? The responsibility always falls on the person receiving information, not to police other's receipt of information. The latter ends up with people arrested for googling pressure cookers.
- not_that_noob 9y ago
  Not quite. No one is asking for personal content to be judged. But if there is a one-to-many pattern of information sharing (e.g. an organized attempt to share content) to unrelated parties, then that content should be vetted for veracity. Either FB does it, or they surface it for others to flag it.
  - white-flame 9y ago
    Why? Why do you buy into this meme of tyranny of censorship and dictated truthiness? Progress cannot happen in society without good & bad ideas freely propagating, and individual decisions to buy into them or not. Every significant cultural movement stems from a counter-cultural uprising, and these sorts of things would be swept up in the "vetting".
    - not_that_noob 9y ago
      Certainly. If it's an opinion, then that's fine. This issue is different - it's about manipulation, the willful presentation of known fake information as real news. That is not allowed in the print media by law (libel/slander) - so why should it be allowed on digital platforms?
      - white-flame 9y ago
        Because Facebook is theoretically not a news media channel, with hired content creation promoting something as factual reporting. Certainly if an individual posts libelous content, they should be legally responsible for that content. But it's ostensibly not Facebook's content, as a social media provider, and international users make legal enforcement near impossible. Propaganda has always existed in opinion pieces, reporting on "rumors" to disclaim themselves, flyers outside official media channels, etc. Facebook doesn't affect any of that whether it's social media or becomes news media. Again, it's 4chan with more rules. Anybody can post anything. It's not a place of fact or truth. It's of people sharing their lives, thoughts, hobbies, opinions, notices, likes & dislikes, etc. Some extremist $SIDE-wing Facebook channel is simply posting such things. It's not an official channel for trustworthy news, it's users being social, whether that user is Aunt Flo or CNN. The core problem is that people think it's a "trustworthy" information platform (and Zuckerberg wants that trust for more customer buy-in). It's not. And it won't be, unless you remove the core personal family & friends social aspect of it.