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Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? Do you have any personal experience of unionized work? Employees having more of a say about what they work on

Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? Do you have any personal experience of unionized work? Employees having more of a say about what they work on though collective bargaining, resulting in employees having less of a say on what they work on, seems unlikely to me.

pfarnsworth 9y ago
I'm making almost $400,000 total compensation and I'm happily working on things that I love. I don't need a union to tax me and force me to pay dues to do absolutely nothing that will benefit me, besides pay themselves well. On top of that, having a union start representing itself as a political force will definitely upset me. I may be against the militarization of Google, but what if I weren't? What if I supported it? Then I would be paying money to a union that I fundamentally disagreed with. There is a court case going to the Supreme Court about exactly this issue. What if I were a Democrat, and the union decided to support a Republican candidate?
- zorpner 9y ago
  You have already taken a political stance -- that the common welfare of the labor force is of no concern to you.
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    There is no proof that unions actually contribute to the common welfare for a labor force such as tech. In fact, it's the opposite. Silicon Valley has been doing so well and enriched so many people that everyone else believes that tech workers have changed cities such as San Francisco for the worse. This was accomplished without a single union in Silicon Valley. It doesn't exist and yet hundreds of thousands of employees around here are disproportionately better off than everyone else. Can you please explain how unions would make things better? Would we be making even more money? Or would they simply enrich themselves from union dues and create friction in every single process that makes this area great?
- kiliantics 9y ago
  You are exactly the kind of scum that would support militarisation if it handed you a cheque with the right amount. I wouldn't be sad (or organise with my union against it) if a drone vaporised you.
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    You're exactly the kind of scum that caused Trump to be elected.
    - dang 9y ago
      You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how badly another commenter behaved. We've had to warn you about this kind of thing in the past, unfortunately. If you keep doing it, we're going to have to ban you, so please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and abide by the rules from now on.
  - solipsism 9y ago
    ... guess dang went to sleep?
  - dang 9y ago
    Personal attacks are not allowed on HN, regardless of how wrong or annoying another comment may be. We ban accounts that do this, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this again?
djrogers 9y ago
> Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? It's simple - unions can force you to join, take your money, and give it to political causes you don't support. And if you're in the minority, you don't have any say in it. See Abood v. Detroit Board of Education and several more recent cases (Friedrichs v. CTA, Janus v AFSCME). Picture this - if you were a minority opinion holder in a Google Union, and the majority of the members decided to strike to protest Google's work with the Pentagon, you would be subject to union discipline, including fines and lawsuits. Basically, unions are fine as long as you agree with everything they say and do...
- kiliantics 9y ago
  There are many different structures that unions can have so what you described isn't necessarily how it has to work. That said, even if it is how it worked, you would still be better off on average than if you weren't in a union.
- confounded 9y ago
  Sure, but by definition most employees will be in the majority on most employee issues. Few things are perfect, many things are useful. If your stance is consistently counter to that of other Google employees, then you probably have bigger problems with working at Google than the existence of a union. Being in a union doesn’t preclude you from shopping around; if working on drone assasinations is personally important, consumer search-engines/ad-tech might not be the most fertile ground. But for the employees who do work on search-engines/ad-tech, having a strong voice (and a credible threat) regarding whether that work subsidizes an extra-judicial assasination programs (sometimes targeting their own countrymen) seems like a fair idea to me.
  - pfarnsworth 9y ago
    You're missing the point. What if the Google union decides to put their weight behind Trump, because he gives tax incentives to search engine companies? And if you're vehemently against Trump and his policies, then where does that leave you? Your tax dues are now being spent on supporting a political campaign that you firmly don't support. And that's the point. Unions are nothing but friction, especially for industries such as tech. I bet the employees of Google can self-organize much more efficiently without a union than with a union, and will be much more effective as well. And as I mention below, Silicon Valley is awash with employee wealth. How exactly could unions have made things better for employees than what has already been accomplished without the help of a single union?
jpttsn 9y ago
It’s confusing because you think of “employees” as a unit while gp thinks of individual “employee”s as units.

pfarnsworth 9y ago

I'm making almost $400,000 total compensation and I'm happily working on things that I love. I don't need a union to tax me and force me to pay dues to do absolutely nothing that will benefit me, besides pay themselves well. On top of that, having a union start representing itself as a political force will definitely upset me. I may be against the militarization of Google, but what if I weren't? What if I supported it? Then I would be paying money to a union that I fundamentally disagreed with. There is a court case going to the Supreme Court about exactly this issue. What if I were a Democrat, and the union decided to support a Republican candidate?

zorpner 9y ago
You have already taken a political stance -- that the common welfare of the labor force is of no concern to you.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  There is no proof that unions actually contribute to the common welfare for a labor force such as tech. In fact, it's the opposite. Silicon Valley has been doing so well and enriched so many people that everyone else believes that tech workers have changed cities such as San Francisco for the worse. This was accomplished without a single union in Silicon Valley. It doesn't exist and yet hundreds of thousands of employees around here are disproportionately better off than everyone else. Can you please explain how unions would make things better? Would we be making even more money? Or would they simply enrich themselves from union dues and create friction in every single process that makes this area great?
kiliantics 9y ago
You are exactly the kind of scum that would support militarisation if it handed you a cheque with the right amount. I wouldn't be sad (or organise with my union against it) if a drone vaporised you.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  You're exactly the kind of scum that caused Trump to be elected.
  - dang 9y ago
    You can't post like this to HN, regardless of how badly another commenter behaved. We've had to warn you about this kind of thing in the past, unfortunately. If you keep doing it, we're going to have to ban you, so please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and abide by the rules from now on.
- solipsism 9y ago
  ... guess dang went to sleep?
- dang 9y ago
  Personal attacks are not allowed on HN, regardless of how wrong or annoying another comment may be. We ban accounts that do this, so would you please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and not do this again?

djrogers 9y ago

> Can you explain the mechanics of that happening? It's simple - unions can force you to join, take your money, and give it to political causes you don't support. And if you're in the minority, you don't have any say in it. See Abood v. Detroit Board of Education and several more recent cases (Friedrichs v. CTA, Janus v AFSCME). Picture this - if you were a minority opinion holder in a Google Union, and the majority of the members decided to strike to protest Google's work with the Pentagon, you would be subject to union discipline, including fines and lawsuits. Basically, unions are fine as long as you agree with everything they say and do...

kiliantics 9y ago
There are many different structures that unions can have so what you described isn't necessarily how it has to work. That said, even if it is how it worked, you would still be better off on average than if you weren't in a union.
confounded 9y ago
Sure, but by definition most employees will be in the majority on most employee issues. Few things are perfect, many things are useful. If your stance is consistently counter to that of other Google employees, then you probably have bigger problems with working at Google than the existence of a union. Being in a union doesn’t preclude you from shopping around; if working on drone assasinations is personally important, consumer search-engines/ad-tech might not be the most fertile ground. But for the employees who do work on search-engines/ad-tech, having a strong voice (and a credible threat) regarding whether that work subsidizes an extra-judicial assasination programs (sometimes targeting their own countrymen) seems like a fair idea to me.
- pfarnsworth 9y ago
  You're missing the point. What if the Google union decides to put their weight behind Trump, because he gives tax incentives to search engine companies? And if you're vehemently against Trump and his policies, then where does that leave you? Your tax dues are now being spent on supporting a political campaign that you firmly don't support. And that's the point. Unions are nothing but friction, especially for industries such as tech. I bet the employees of Google can self-organize much more efficiently without a union than with a union, and will be much more effective as well. And as I mention below, Silicon Valley is awash with employee wealth. How exactly could unions have made things better for employees than what has already been accomplished without the help of a single union?

jpttsn 9y ago

It’s confusing because you think of “employees” as a unit while gp thinks of individual “employee”s as units.