5 ms·

> She called Davidson on the house phone and told him that the hurricane was now a Category 3. He knew that already. She proposed the escape route to the south

by clon 9y ago

> She called Davidson on the house phone and told him that the hurricane was now a Category 3. He knew that already. She proposed the escape route to the south and a smooth sail on to San Juan. He rejected her suggestion. I wonder if in the maritime world there is the equivalent of CRM (Cockpit Resource Management), as in aviation. Too many lives were lost due to 1st officer never taking over command when the error in the commander's thinking had already become apparent or the entire aircraft was being flown, effectively, by a single infallible captain and not a team. Lessons were learned decades ago and at least in a 1st world outfit I would like to believe that no 1st officer would hesitate to utter the words "I have control" when in such stress.

aglionby 9y ago
There is: bridge resource management. It actually grew out of CRM. Section 2.7 of the NTSB report (linked elsewhere in this thread) gives an overview of it and discusses how it played a role in this incident. It's an interesting read and seems to be relatively in-depth.
- clon 9y ago
  Learned something today, will research it. Thanks!
  - aglionby 9y ago
    The comments by the board members on pages 256-259 discuss this as well. The second statement is interesting in particular as it talks about the differences in crew hierarchy between aviation and maritime.
- scrollaway 9y ago
  Reading through Section 2.7 of that report was a treat, thank you! (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAR1701.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...)
  - Already__Taken 9y ago
    Excellent read thank you, that final section how the company struck off BRM (CRM) from the ships training prior was pretty damning.
- eastbayjake 9y ago
  Thank you for sharing. Sections 2.6 ("Captain's Decision-Making") and 2.7 are excellent case studies in leadership and authority -- especially the parts about "power distribution" and promoting a culture of open feedback. The recommendations for the crew to "issue a direct command or to use a crew obligation statement — a statement in which the subordinate obligates the senior crewmember as part of the navigational team by using language such as 'we should' or 'our route'" is excellent. People who need to "manage up" at their jobs can start doing this today.
clon 9y ago
Also from the world of aviation, seems the captain had developed a classic case of get-there-itis. The symptoms are there, the prognosis is never good.
korethr 9y ago
One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?
- jacquesm 9y ago
  There's a movie that reviews that situation in a navy (nuclear submarine) context, it's called 'Crimson Tide'.
  - LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
    There’s an even older and probably more relevant (or at least similar) called “The Caine Mutiny.” An lt takes command from the Captain during a typhoon due to the caltain’s actions/behavior and is subsequently tried for mutiny.
  - leesalminen 9y ago
    Not sure why you’re being downvoted, Jacques. We’ve been in a couple spats here but I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinion. Have (yet another) upvote :).
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      I suspect my comments in the thread about the Google shooting gained me a fresh batch of enemies.
      - saturationPoint 9y ago
        If you look at the numbers for this site, these days, HN is too popular for it's own good, and it's getting really noisy. On the front page right now, there are lots of garbage articles, with 500+ upvotes and comments, and any one of them handily enables new downvoters. Way more people can downvote now, than ever before, and users relish new power. Having a respectful honor system, and some voting ring detection is great, but the truth is, there are a lot more shitty people on this site. What to do about that?

by clon 9y ago

aglionby 9y ago

There is: bridge resource management. It actually grew out of CRM. Section 2.7 of the NTSB report (linked elsewhere in this thread) gives an overview of it and discusses how it played a role in this incident. It's an interesting read and seems to be relatively in-depth.

clon 9y ago
Learned something today, will research it. Thanks!
- aglionby 9y ago
  The comments by the board members on pages 256-259 discuss this as well. The second statement is interesting in particular as it talks about the differences in crew hierarchy between aviation and maritime.
scrollaway 9y ago
Reading through Section 2.7 of that report was a treat, thank you! (https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAR1701.pdf https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...)
- Already__Taken 9y ago
  Excellent read thank you, that final section how the company struck off BRM (CRM) from the ships training prior was pretty damning.
eastbayjake 9y ago
Thank you for sharing. Sections 2.6 ("Captain's Decision-Making") and 2.7 are excellent case studies in leadership and authority -- especially the parts about "power distribution" and promoting a culture of open feedback. The recommendations for the crew to "issue a direct command or to use a crew obligation statement — a statement in which the subordinate obligates the senior crewmember as part of the navigational team by using language such as 'we should' or 'our route'" is excellent. People who need to "manage up" at their jobs can start doing this today.

clon 9y ago

Also from the world of aviation, seems the captain had developed a classic case of get-there-itis. The symptoms are there, the prognosis is never good.

korethr 9y ago

One of my takeaways from the article is that the captain's confidence and willingness to do the right thing had been shaken after he'd been burned the last time he'd refused unsafe orders. I'm wondering if the 1st officer similarly faced bad consequences for doing the right thing and taking command -- mutiny charges are still a thing, aren't they?

jacquesm 9y ago
There's a movie that reviews that situation in a navy (nuclear submarine) context, it's called 'Crimson Tide'.
- LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
  There’s an even older and probably more relevant (or at least similar) called “The Caine Mutiny.” An lt takes command from the Captain during a typhoon due to the caltain’s actions/behavior and is subsequently tried for mutiny.
- leesalminen 9y ago
  Not sure why you’re being downvoted, Jacques. We’ve been in a couple spats here but I’ve always respected your thoughts and opinion. Have (yet another) upvote :).
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I suspect my comments in the thread about the Google shooting gained me a fresh batch of enemies.
    - saturationPoint 9y ago
      If you look at the numbers for this site, these days, HN is too popular for it's own good, and it's getting really noisy. On the front page right now, there are lots of garbage articles, with 500+ upvotes and comments, and any one of them handily enables new downvoters. Way more people can downvote now, than ever before, and users relish new power. Having a respectful honor system, and some voting ring detection is great, but the truth is, there are a lot more shitty people on this site. What to do about that?