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self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force,

self defense is a human right only in a lawless society. The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force, and all matters should be resolved in a civil court of law. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the definition of a lawless society (a society where the state has no way to impose the rule of law). I get it, guns are fun. But a human right? Definitely not

GiorgioG 9y ago
> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. If that's the case, I don't want to live anywhere else. If someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night, they pose a deadly threat to my family. In what country would you not feel the same way? > Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state. Not all states are benevolent, nor are they guaranteed to stay benevolent. Many Americans are wary of our gov't (and IMO rightly so.)
- merpnderp 9y ago
  You make a great point. Police forces have been sued for responding slowly or not at all to threats on lives and found to have no responsibility to respond to a particular crime.
  - throwaway84742 9y ago
    Many people don’t actually know this, but police has “no duty to protect”, meaning that they can perfectly legally not Intervene even if they know with 100% certainty people are being hurt or murdered. Look up “no duty to protect”.
    - stickdogg 9y ago
      I know this from personal experience to be fact.
- gfo 9y ago
  Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? The same people who are large proponents of the 2nd Amendment also seem to encourage a massive defense budget which seems backwards to me.
  - mmirate 9y ago
    Because you have no way of knowing, beforehand, an intruder's exact intentions.
  - rtx 9y ago
    >Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? They have the option of wearing a bullet proof vest or use trained monkeys to do their bidding.
  - GiorgioG 9y ago
    Because a man's home is his castle. > Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? Nope, some of us citizens believe that the US military ranks will by and large not obey unlawful/unconstitutional orders to attack its own citizenry on our soil. If they choose to do so anyway - good luck, there's more of us than there are of them.
  - lliamander 9y ago
    > Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? The loss of property, and the violation of one's home and sense of security are real harms. But the point is not to make the violator pay, so much as it is to merely prevent an injustice. And many (I believe most) defensive gun uses involve merely brandishing the weapon. Most people do not relish the thought of taking another's life. > Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? The same people who are large proponents of the 2nd Amendment also seem to encourage a massive defense budget which seems backwards to me. It makes more sense when you realize that there is significant overlap between "gun owners" and "past or present military service".
mkempe 9y ago
You're quite incorrect. The state properly has a monopoly on the retaliatory use of force (and none other) under objective laws and legal processes. But self-defense is an emergency, and there is no rational argument to claim that one may not protect oneself, one's family, or one's property against beasts or thugs. On the other hand, if you kill someone in self-defense, you had better be prepared to explain how necessary it was, in the court of law; which is exactly how things work in the USA. If one is so depraved as to argue that self-defense is unacceptable as such, then one should be prepared to live and die as a slave to the first thug or dictator who walks by one's neighborhood or country.
- postmillenial 9y ago
  The past few years have seen a LOT of law enforcement officers getting away with brutal killings that weren't retaliatory in nature at all. (Not that this is a new phenomenon, it's only newly visible thanks to increased citizen vigilance, bodycams, etc.) So I'd empirically dispute your position that the state's monopoly on force is only retaliatory-- we don't and have never truly lived in a society of objective laws and legal processes.
dfee 9y ago
> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Really? Your profile was created 15 minutes ago, and this seems like an absurd statement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide
Covzire 9y ago
This strikes me as a trolling comment. But if you're serious, and if you can pull the idea that the state owns all manifestations of the application of force out of thin air, then there is no limit to how many of your other human rights that state will take away from you. By giving up the right to self defense, something so fundamental to all living things, you effectively chain yourself in irons and tell your masters to do with you as they will. That's basically North Korea today.
- postmillenial 9y ago
  The state in any case does have a monopoly on violence. That part was true.
reitanqild 9y ago
> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. I think you are wrong. At least in Norway where I've lived for the last few decades I'm pretty certain people are found not guilty because of self defense. > Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the definition of a lawless society (a society where the state has no way to impose the rule of law). Persecuting minorities where completely lawful in nazi Germany. I guess you should be looking for another word because as much as I'm against lawlessness that doesn't cut it here IMO.
NickLamp 9y ago
That's an incredible amount of trust to have in the state. Have governments shown to be infallible or incapable of abuse of power? You can argue guns aren't essential to protect yourself but I don't think you can argue that protecting yourself isn't an innate human right.
tolgerias 9y ago
I can only reply to myself (low score?) but my point was not that self defense is not justifiable in extreme cases (though I made that point. I didn't choose my words wisely). What I mean is that by no means is the citizen expected to engage in vigilante justice or apply force against the state. That leads to lawlessness and was kind of hinted by the parent comment. The state should have the monopoly of force _to apply in a lawful manner and mantain the rule of law_
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- lovich 9y ago
  The state decides what a lawful manner is, thats about as useful a statement as "it's not illegal when the president does it". The states only rules as long as a certain X% of the populace agress with it. The second amendment tries to balance that X so that it doesn't become something like o ly 1% of the populace needs to agree with the government for it to maintain power. There's arguments to be made as to what percentage of the populace needs to agree for a stable society to be formed. Both extremes of 100% and 0% are obviously bad as you either get no agreement or total dictatorship. Just saying that you should listen to the government though ignores the majority of the history of governments
- manfredo 9y ago
  Vigilantism isn't self defense. Even in states with the strongest self defense laws (e.g. stand your ground laws), you can only use force to defend yourself (and I think also your family or immediate companions) when you are threatened. You can't just prowl around shooting suspected drug dealers.
paulddraper 9y ago
Crypto is a human right only in a lawless society. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to complete privacy even from the govrenment. Even more, many think they should be able to hide their actions from the state...that is the definition of a lawless society. I get it, HTTPS is fun. But a human right? Definitely not.
- mmirate 9y ago
  It would appear that your sarcasm went undetected.
User23 9y ago
The Catholic Church teaches that killing in self-defense in self defense is legitimate. In fact, it can even be a grave duty. So that means this is hardly just an American idea.
Natanael_L 9y ago
Self defense should definitely be a right, and I'm not American - I'm Swedish. There's a big difference between responding with full force, or as Swedish law allows, responding with reasonable force proportional to the harm that you're at risk of. Any limits to the right to intervene should not go further than what the state can fill in for. Since the police is not everpresent in our lives (and shouldn't be!), there will inevitably be situations where you need to fend for yourself, since you can't always just wait for police to arrive. You can put this through some translation software of your choice; http://www.domarbloggen.se/sodertorns-tingsratt/ansvarsfrihetsgrunder-sarskilt-ratten-till-sjalvforsvar-nodvarnsratten-och-ratten-att-avvarja-fara-nodratten-del-2/ http://www.domarbloggen.se/sodertorns-tingsratt/ansvarsfrihe...
briandear 9y ago
..only in a lawless society? Nazi Germany was a country full of laws. (I realize I am Godwin’s law-ing, but the parent implied that self-defense ought not be a right in a society with legal institutions and laws; Nazi Germany is a perfect counter example of how “laws” aren’t always just and that a fear of government is a legitimate concern.)
CamperBob2 9y ago
The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force Note that like most other points made in discussions involving "rights," this is an opinion, presented as if it were an objective fact. Another opinion is that you have only the rights that you can defend. That one, at least, has some empirical proof behind it.
- tolgerias 8y ago
  Why do you pay your taxes? Is it altruism on your part, or fear of retaliation if you don´t? What happens if you were more powerful than the IRS (or whatever force the IRS might send your way to coerce you into paying your debts)? How can a state impose a law on criminals if criminals are stronger than itself? See mexico for example, where drug cartels are arguably stronger than the state in certain parts they control. Or brasilian favelas. This part is not an opinion my friend. Also I don´t claim to have invented this concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
RaleyField 9y ago
> lawless society Things aren't black and white. Every country is lawless to a certain degree. Otherwise there wouldn't be any robberies in countries that aren't "lawless" (whatever that means). One difference between EU and US is that a robber has a decent chance of being shot in US and not in EU meaning you become a sitting duck the moment you stop living the socialist life that state deems appropriate.

GiorgioG 9y ago

> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. If that's the case, I don't want to live anywhere else. If someone breaks into my home in the middle of the night, they pose a deadly threat to my family. In what country would you not feel the same way? > Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state. Not all states are benevolent, nor are they guaranteed to stay benevolent. Many Americans are wary of our gov't (and IMO rightly so.)

merpnderp 9y ago
You make a great point. Police forces have been sued for responding slowly or not at all to threats on lives and found to have no responsibility to respond to a particular crime.
- throwaway84742 9y ago
  Many people don’t actually know this, but police has “no duty to protect”, meaning that they can perfectly legally not Intervene even if they know with 100% certainty people are being hurt or murdered. Look up “no duty to protect”.
  - stickdogg 9y ago
    I know this from personal experience to be fact.
gfo 9y ago
Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? The same people who are large proponents of the 2nd Amendment also seem to encourage a massive defense budget which seems backwards to me.
- mmirate 9y ago
  Because you have no way of knowing, beforehand, an intruder's exact intentions.
- rtx 9y ago
  >Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? They have the option of wearing a bullet proof vest or use trained monkeys to do their bidding.
- GiorgioG 9y ago
  Because a man's home is his castle. > Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? Nope, some of us citizens believe that the US military ranks will by and large not obey unlawful/unconstitutional orders to attack its own citizenry on our soil. If they choose to do so anyway - good luck, there's more of us than there are of them.
- lliamander 9y ago
  > Why must an intruder, who may be there just to steal something and not harm others, immediately have to pay for their actions with their life? The loss of property, and the violation of one's home and sense of security are real harms. But the point is not to make the violator pay, so much as it is to merely prevent an injustice. And many (I believe most) defensive gun uses involve merely brandishing the weapon. Most people do not relish the thought of taking another's life. > Do gun owners truly believe that they can band together and stop the entirety of the United States military anymore? The same people who are large proponents of the 2nd Amendment also seem to encourage a massive defense budget which seems backwards to me. It makes more sense when you realize that there is significant overlap between "gun owners" and "past or present military service".

mkempe 9y ago

You're quite incorrect. The state properly has a monopoly on the retaliatory use of force (and none other) under objective laws and legal processes. But self-defense is an emergency, and there is no rational argument to claim that one may not protect oneself, one's family, or one's property against beasts or thugs. On the other hand, if you kill someone in self-defense, you had better be prepared to explain how necessary it was, in the court of law; which is exactly how things work in the USA. If one is so depraved as to argue that self-defense is unacceptable as such, then one should be prepared to live and die as a slave to the first thug or dictator who walks by one's neighborhood or country.

postmillenial 9y ago
The past few years have seen a LOT of law enforcement officers getting away with brutal killings that weren't retaliatory in nature at all. (Not that this is a new phenomenon, it's only newly visible thanks to increased citizen vigilance, bodycams, etc.) So I'd empirically dispute your position that the state's monopoly on force is only retaliatory-- we don't and have never truly lived in a society of objective laws and legal processes.

dfee 9y ago

> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. Really? Your profile was created 15 minutes ago, and this seems like an absurd statement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide

Covzire 9y ago

This strikes me as a trolling comment. But if you're serious, and if you can pull the idea that the state owns all manifestations of the application of force out of thin air, then there is no limit to how many of your other human rights that state will take away from you. By giving up the right to self defense, something so fundamental to all living things, you effectively chain yourself in irons and tell your masters to do with you as they will. That's basically North Korea today.

postmillenial 9y ago
The state in any case does have a monopoly on violence. That part was true.

reitanqild 9y ago

> Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to kill in self defense. I think you are wrong. At least in Norway where I've lived for the last few decades I'm pretty certain people are found not guilty because of self defense. > Even more, many think they should be able to defend themselves from the state.. while that is the definition of a lawless society (a society where the state has no way to impose the rule of law). Persecuting minorities where completely lawful in nazi Germany. I guess you should be looking for another word because as much as I'm against lawlessness that doesn't cut it here IMO.

NickLamp 9y ago

That's an incredible amount of trust to have in the state. Have governments shown to be infallible or incapable of abuse of power? You can argue guns aren't essential to protect yourself but I don't think you can argue that protecting yourself isn't an innate human right.

tolgerias 9y ago

I can only reply to myself (low score?) but my point was not that self defense is not justifiable in extreme cases (though I made that point. I didn't choose my words wisely). What I mean is that by no means is the citizen expected to engage in vigilante justice or apply force against the state. That leads to lawlessness and was kind of hinted by the parent comment. The state should have the monopoly of force _to apply in a lawful manner and mantain the rule of law_

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
lovich 9y ago
The state decides what a lawful manner is, thats about as useful a statement as "it's not illegal when the president does it". The states only rules as long as a certain X% of the populace agress with it. The second amendment tries to balance that X so that it doesn't become something like o ly 1% of the populace needs to agree with the government for it to maintain power. There's arguments to be made as to what percentage of the populace needs to agree for a stable society to be formed. Both extremes of 100% and 0% are obviously bad as you either get no agreement or total dictatorship. Just saying that you should listen to the government though ignores the majority of the history of governments
manfredo 9y ago
Vigilantism isn't self defense. Even in states with the strongest self defense laws (e.g. stand your ground laws), you can only use force to defend yourself (and I think also your family or immediate companions) when you are threatened. You can't just prowl around shooting suspected drug dealers.

paulddraper 9y ago

Crypto is a human right only in a lawless society. Only in the USA is it normal to think that people should have the right to complete privacy even from the govrenment. Even more, many think they should be able to hide their actions from the state...that is the definition of a lawless society. I get it, HTTPS is fun. But a human right? Definitely not.

mmirate 9y ago
It would appear that your sarcasm went undetected.

User23 9y ago

The Catholic Church teaches that killing in self-defense in self defense is legitimate. In fact, it can even be a grave duty. So that means this is hardly just an American idea.

Natanael_L 9y ago

Self defense should definitely be a right, and I'm not American - I'm Swedish. There's a big difference between responding with full force, or as Swedish law allows, responding with reasonable force proportional to the harm that you're at risk of. Any limits to the right to intervene should not go further than what the state can fill in for. Since the police is not everpresent in our lives (and shouldn't be!), there will inevitably be situations where you need to fend for yourself, since you can't always just wait for police to arrive. You can put this through some translation software of your choice; http://www.domarbloggen.se/sodertorns-tingsratt/ansvarsfrihetsgrunder-sarskilt-ratten-till-sjalvforsvar-nodvarnsratten-och-ratten-att-avvarja-fara-nodratten-del-2/ http://www.domarbloggen.se/sodertorns-tingsratt/ansvarsfrihe...

briandear 9y ago

..only in a lawless society? Nazi Germany was a country full of laws. (I realize I am Godwin’s law-ing, but the parent implied that self-defense ought not be a right in a society with legal institutions and laws; Nazi Germany is a perfect counter example of how “laws” aren’t always just and that a fear of government is a legitimate concern.)

CamperBob2 9y ago

The existence of the state makes it necessary for it to have the monopoly of the application of force Note that like most other points made in discussions involving "rights," this is an opinion, presented as if it were an objective fact. Another opinion is that you have only the rights that you can defend. That one, at least, has some empirical proof behind it.

tolgerias 8y ago
Why do you pay your taxes? Is it altruism on your part, or fear of retaliation if you don´t? What happens if you were more powerful than the IRS (or whatever force the IRS might send your way to coerce you into paying your debts)? How can a state impose a law on criminals if criminals are stronger than itself? See mexico for example, where drug cartels are arguably stronger than the state in certain parts they control. Or brasilian favelas. This part is not an opinion my friend. Also I don´t claim to have invented this concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence

RaleyField 9y ago

> lawless society Things aren't black and white. Every country is lawless to a certain degree. Otherwise there wouldn't be any robberies in countries that aren't "lawless" (whatever that means). One difference between EU and US is that a robber has a decent chance of being shot in US and not in EU meaning you become a sitting duck the moment you stop living the socialist life that state deems appropriate.