8 ms·

I don't think this kind of reaction is about philosophical "right" to an income from a particular company, more about sudden changes. It's similar to being fire

I don't think this kind of reaction is about philosophical "right" to an income from a particular company, more about sudden changes. It's similar to being fired: you previously got an income from this company, then they decided not to give you an income. Some people get angry at that, and sometimes feel desperate, worried about ending up homeless etc. depending on how much they relied on this income and what kinds of safety nets they have access to. Which is all true even if the company was within its rights to fire you. Of course most people who get angry about being laid off don't shoot anyone, but it's unfortunately not really a new story in the US (Google for something like, [laid off employee shooting], and there's dozens of hits).

emodendroket 9y ago
Mark Ames wrote a whole book (which I admit I didn't quite finish) with the thesis that you could tie the rise of workplace shootings to an increase in worker precarity.
- mistersquid 9y ago
  Is Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion: From Reagan's Workplaces to Clinton's Columbine and Beyond the book you were thinking of? (Thanks for the recommendation in any case.) [0] https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824 https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Col...
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Yes.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  > you could tie the rise of workplace shootings to an increase in worker precarity. Funny, outside of the US even in countries with high unemployment nobody goes around and shoots anyone.
  - fixermark 9y ago
    That's a complicated question, and I suspect it has a lot of dimensions. I can't speak for the culture of other countries, but Americans have a deep-seated sense of worth tied to profession. Having your livelihood stripped raises existential questions about whether you have any value as an American (to understand this phenomenon better, it may be worth also comparing suicide rates in the US after a job loss to suicide rates in other cultures in similar situations). ... but in addition, the US has a pretty deep-seated cultural mythos that when your worth is taken by someone, you take it back, using violence if necessary. Witness the Revolutionary War and the recent phenomenon of a conservative political group naming itself after an economic rebellion against the East India Company.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      More importantly, in many places in the USA, what would be medium inconveniences in other countries (illness, company folding) can quickly and easily destroy a life.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    Which countries do you have in mind here? Is it not the case that most of them have either less access to guns or better social programs for the unemployed (or both)?
jacquesm 9y ago
The problem is - and this goes for all the apologists for this person in this thread - that having your stuff on Youtube isn't a thing you should count on. If you run a small business and you make that business entirely dependent on a third party you are inherently setting yourself up for failure. Whether it is Youtube, Facebook, Twitch, Medium or any other user generated content site you give up control the moment you start using them and you are essentially working for whatever crumbs they decide to throw your way. Being fired in many countries actually does come with a whole pile of assurances about your continued income, but it is ridiculous to compare the situation of a content producer on a free platform with the one of a salaried employee. And to take that anger out on the employees of Youtube is utterly ridiculous, if you feel that there is some form of breach of contract then the courts would be your avenue to seek redress.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  I want to see what the reaction here would look like if instead AWS we dropping a bunch of customers with no warning.
  - troydavis 9y ago
    You said the magic word: customers. People uploading videos to YouTube aren't customers and don't generally have a contract guaranteeing that they'll receive anything – ad revenue or even the ability to continue uploading. Even AWS customers who don't have a contract (like reserved instances or an Enterprise Agreement) may not have any claim to receive ongoing service.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    Hopefully it would simply mean more customers for other hosting centers. If you feel that people should take up arms against AWS employees in that case then you have other problems. Business disputes are as old as businesses and we have ways to resolve those disputes: the courts. And be sure to read the fine print of any service or company that you are going to do business with if your business will be dependent on that other party. Avoid such dependencies as much as possible. So yes, signing up with AWS is a calculated risk. You should know the possible downsides of that decision, and you should be aware of your position, rights and obligations as well as the terms of service.
ensignro2340 9y ago
It's not similar to being fired. [REDACTED: It's similar to a store owner allowing you to panhandle outside their business, and then later telling you you can't panhandle there anymore (but loiter all you want!).] It is not reasonable for adults to look at internet ad revenue as a reliable source of income. It's unfortunate if/when they fall on hard times because they made the mistake of relying on something so volatile. I really wish people this confused on the issue would google (heh) AdWords certification study guide and "Google Penguin"/"Google Panda"/"Google Hummingbird"/etc. EDIT: many people are upset by the panhandling comparison. I just meant that as a juxtaposition to those saying "it's like being fired". It was meant as an analogy - no intent to insult anyone (YouTubers and beggars alike). A better analogy would be a musician who was paid to perform in a bar, and the bar owner tells them "you can still play here all you want, but we're no longer going to pay you." (mind you - they are not saying "you have to continue playing here and do it for free")
- delecti 9y ago
  Youtube is a valuable platform in no small part due to content creators, and they recognize that, which is why they have a revenue sharing program to begin with. It's disingenuous to compare those content creators to panhandlers. I agree that they should realize it's a volatile system and prepare for downswings, but that doesn't make them beggars.
  - ensignro2340 9y ago
    I didn't call them beggars - I was only meaning to call out the comparison to employees. Sorry for the confusion. I've edited the original comment.
- baud147258 9y ago
  Well, it's not exactly panhandling, but more like a venue providing free spaces for artists. The venue is funded through advertissement and some of this money is given to the artists, taking into account the number of people looking at them. Because in that case, there's a content produced, which is used to bring people to the venue. But I agree on the rest of your point, relying on advertising and third-party services is unreasonable.
ekianjo 9y ago
> Which is all true even if the company was within its rights to fire you. What point are you trying to make then? People get angry because they feel it's unfair, so...?

emodendroket 9y ago

Mark Ames wrote a whole book (which I admit I didn't quite finish) with the thesis that you could tie the rise of workplace shootings to an increase in worker precarity.

mistersquid 9y ago
Is Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion: From Reagan's Workplaces to Clinton's Columbine and Beyond the book you were thinking of? (Thanks for the recommendation in any case.) [0] https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824 https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Col...
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Yes.
ekianjo 9y ago
> you could tie the rise of workplace shootings to an increase in worker precarity. Funny, outside of the US even in countries with high unemployment nobody goes around and shoots anyone.
- fixermark 9y ago
  That's a complicated question, and I suspect it has a lot of dimensions. I can't speak for the culture of other countries, but Americans have a deep-seated sense of worth tied to profession. Having your livelihood stripped raises existential questions about whether you have any value as an American (to understand this phenomenon better, it may be worth also comparing suicide rates in the US after a job loss to suicide rates in other cultures in similar situations). ... but in addition, the US has a pretty deep-seated cultural mythos that when your worth is taken by someone, you take it back, using violence if necessary. Witness the Revolutionary War and the recent phenomenon of a conservative political group naming itself after an economic rebellion against the East India Company.
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    More importantly, in many places in the USA, what would be medium inconveniences in other countries (illness, company folding) can quickly and easily destroy a life.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Which countries do you have in mind here? Is it not the case that most of them have either less access to guns or better social programs for the unemployed (or both)?

jacquesm 9y ago

The problem is - and this goes for all the apologists for this person in this thread - that having your stuff on Youtube isn't a thing you should count on. If you run a small business and you make that business entirely dependent on a third party you are inherently setting yourself up for failure. Whether it is Youtube, Facebook, Twitch, Medium or any other user generated content site you give up control the moment you start using them and you are essentially working for whatever crumbs they decide to throw your way. Being fired in many countries actually does come with a whole pile of assurances about your continued income, but it is ridiculous to compare the situation of a content producer on a free platform with the one of a salaried employee. And to take that anger out on the employees of Youtube is utterly ridiculous, if you feel that there is some form of breach of contract then the courts would be your avenue to seek redress.

emodendroket 9y ago
I want to see what the reaction here would look like if instead AWS we dropping a bunch of customers with no warning.
- troydavis 9y ago
  You said the magic word: customers. People uploading videos to YouTube aren't customers and don't generally have a contract guaranteeing that they'll receive anything – ad revenue or even the ability to continue uploading. Even AWS customers who don't have a contract (like reserved instances or an Enterprise Agreement) may not have any claim to receive ongoing service.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Hopefully it would simply mean more customers for other hosting centers. If you feel that people should take up arms against AWS employees in that case then you have other problems. Business disputes are as old as businesses and we have ways to resolve those disputes: the courts. And be sure to read the fine print of any service or company that you are going to do business with if your business will be dependent on that other party. Avoid such dependencies as much as possible. So yes, signing up with AWS is a calculated risk. You should know the possible downsides of that decision, and you should be aware of your position, rights and obligations as well as the terms of service.

ensignro2340 9y ago

It's not similar to being fired. [REDACTED: It's similar to a store owner allowing you to panhandle outside their business, and then later telling you you can't panhandle there anymore (but loiter all you want!).] It is not reasonable for adults to look at internet ad revenue as a reliable source of income. It's unfortunate if/when they fall on hard times because they made the mistake of relying on something so volatile. I really wish people this confused on the issue would google (heh) AdWords certification study guide and "Google Penguin"/"Google Panda"/"Google Hummingbird"/etc. EDIT: many people are upset by the panhandling comparison. I just meant that as a juxtaposition to those saying "it's like being fired". It was meant as an analogy - no intent to insult anyone (YouTubers and beggars alike). A better analogy would be a musician who was paid to perform in a bar, and the bar owner tells them "you can still play here all you want, but we're no longer going to pay you." (mind you - they are not saying "you have to continue playing here and do it for free")

delecti 9y ago
Youtube is a valuable platform in no small part due to content creators, and they recognize that, which is why they have a revenue sharing program to begin with. It's disingenuous to compare those content creators to panhandlers. I agree that they should realize it's a volatile system and prepare for downswings, but that doesn't make them beggars.
- ensignro2340 9y ago
  I didn't call them beggars - I was only meaning to call out the comparison to employees. Sorry for the confusion. I've edited the original comment.
baud147258 9y ago
Well, it's not exactly panhandling, but more like a venue providing free spaces for artists. The venue is funded through advertissement and some of this money is given to the artists, taking into account the number of people looking at them. Because in that case, there's a content produced, which is used to bring people to the venue. But I agree on the rest of your point, relying on advertising and third-party services is unreasonable.

ekianjo 9y ago

> Which is all true even if the company was within its rights to fire you. What point are you trying to make then? People get angry because they feel it's unfair, so...?