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America is 12th in the world in per-capita gun deaths by country. Should we be satisfied with 12th?

by tomlock 9y ago

wtf_is_up 9y ago
That's surprisingly good considering the number of guns in circulation and ease of obtaining them in general.
xienze 9y ago
Source please. I’m almost certain that includes suicides.
- zachwood 9y ago
  Why wouldn't it?
  - xienze 9y ago
    Because including suicides paints a misleading picture. When you say “gun deaths” with no qualifiers people think murders involving a gun.
    - DanBC 9y ago
      Why is it misleading? It's mostly impulsive acts of violence. Most, but not all, of it is against the self. The key method of reducing violence to other people and reducing death by suicide is to reduce access to means. Reducing access to guns would help both problems.
    - mercer 9y ago
      I disagree. One of the main arguments against the proliferation of guns is that they're too powerful to have, barring a good reason. Accidental death (a child getting a hold of one, for example) and suicide are often brought forward as examples of this, alongside murder in a 'heat of the moment' situations. In fact, I've rarely heard 'predetermined' murder as the primary argument in discussions I've had on the matter (at least over here in Europe). Mostly because murderers who intend to do so with guns will not be deterred by guns being illegal, so it's relatively weak argument.
asdsa5325 9y ago
We are 31st when you don't include suicide or accidents FYI.
- tomlock 9y ago
  So still well above average?
  - asdsa5325 9y ago
    On gun violence, yes. Violence in general, no
- mercer 9y ago
  Why would you not include those?
  - lolsal 9y ago
    Because suicides don't violate anyone else's freedoms and accidents are accidents.
    - mercer 9y ago
      1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed. 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance. 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm. My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one. I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix.
      - lolsal 9y ago
        > 1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed. You can dispute it, but you'd still be wrong. > 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance. I understand this position. Unfortunately there are rights involved. Infringing rights should not be done lightly, especially if there are other options. Let's increase mental health services in our communities and eliminate the driving cause of suicidal behaviors if possible before we remove our rights. > 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm. Yes, different things are different. I'm not sure your point here. People have accidents while piloting 2 tons of metal every day, which certainly has more kinetic energy at 60mph than a 9mm bullet. > My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one. You're going to have to be more clear and precise than that. What do you mean "it doesn't really hold"? People don't care about their freedoms? Or they don't care about my freedoms? > I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix. For any example like this, there are examples of defensive gun use that saved lives.

America is 12th in the world in per-capita gun deaths by country. Should we be satisfied with 12th?

wtf_is_up 9y ago

That's surprisingly good considering the number of guns in circulation and ease of obtaining them in general.

xienze 9y ago

Source please. I’m almost certain that includes suicides.

zachwood 9y ago
Why wouldn't it?
- xienze 9y ago
  Because including suicides paints a misleading picture. When you say “gun deaths” with no qualifiers people think murders involving a gun.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    Why is it misleading? It's mostly impulsive acts of violence. Most, but not all, of it is against the self. The key method of reducing violence to other people and reducing death by suicide is to reduce access to means. Reducing access to guns would help both problems.
  - mercer 9y ago
    I disagree. One of the main arguments against the proliferation of guns is that they're too powerful to have, barring a good reason. Accidental death (a child getting a hold of one, for example) and suicide are often brought forward as examples of this, alongside murder in a 'heat of the moment' situations. In fact, I've rarely heard 'predetermined' murder as the primary argument in discussions I've had on the matter (at least over here in Europe). Mostly because murderers who intend to do so with guns will not be deterred by guns being illegal, so it's relatively weak argument.

asdsa5325 9y ago

We are 31st when you don't include suicide or accidents FYI.

tomlock 9y ago
So still well above average?
- asdsa5325 9y ago
  On gun violence, yes. Violence in general, no
mercer 9y ago
Why would you not include those?
- lolsal 9y ago
  Because suicides don't violate anyone else's freedoms and accidents are accidents.
  - mercer 9y ago
    1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed. 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance. 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm. My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one. I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix.
    - lolsal 9y ago
      > 1) that assumes gun ownership has any bearing on someone's freedom. I'd say that's very much disputed. You can dispute it, but you'd still be wrong. > 2) a gun offering easier impulsive suicide strikes me as a good reason to curb their proliferance. I understand this position. Unfortunately there are rights involved. Infringing rights should not be done lightly, especially if there are other options. Let's increase mental health services in our communities and eliminate the driving cause of suicidal behaviors if possible before we remove our rights. > 3) accidentally shooting yourself in the face is quite different from accidentally doing something that doesn't involve the destructive power of a firearm. Yes, different things are different. I'm not sure your point here. People have accidents while piloting 2 tons of metal every day, which certainly has more kinetic energy at 60mph than a 9mm bullet. > My point is that for many people, the 'freedom' argument doesn't really hold. Whether it does or doesn't, I do think the suicide/accident angle is a very serious one. You're going to have to be more clear and precise than that. What do you mean "it doesn't really hold"? People don't care about their freedoms? Or they don't care about my freedoms? > I've known people who have attempted suicide, and I am convinced that the risk to their lives would've been greater if they had a gun. I also know many people who have done really stupid things, whether as kids or teenagers or adults. I'm happy guns weren't in the mix. For any example like this, there are examples of defensive gun use that saved lives.