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The bitcoin failure (I think it is) teaches something. People don't really give each other money. It's kind of illegal. Money is supposed to move between people

The bitcoin failure (I think it is) teaches something. People don't really give each other money. It's kind of illegal. Money is supposed to move between people and companies or companies and companies, not between people. There is no demand for Peter-pays-Paul. That last bit, that's a profound observation. There is some real demand, but not much. More so there is theoretical demand. In theory I want the option to pay with cash because dammit I want that last vestige of freedom from being tracked and taxed. None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. -Goethe Cash is an important palliative for the feeling that perhaps we aren't as free as we would like to believe.

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
> I want that last vestige of freedom Freedom always was an aristocratic privilege. What they sold to the proles - with heavy advertising, at a price up to your life - was a cheap knock-off.
arghwhat 9y ago
As mentioned elsewhere, "Peter-pays-Paul" is huge in Scandinavia. MobilePay, a person-to-person payment app in Denmark, is a huge deal here. It had 3 million users in 2016 (out of 7 million people!), and its second-priority shop payment feature (that arrived much later) is challenging credit cards. It's used for everything from selling used goods to splitting bills. Swish, the Swedish equivalent, has 4 million users. Vipp, the Norwegian equivalent, has 2.7 million users. Peter-pays-Paul has huge demand here. Bitcoin is just a terrible solution to that problem. (uggedal provided the Swedish and Norwegian numbers).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mcv 9y ago
  Tikkie, a Dutch equivalent, has 2 million users. Not as much as the Scandinavian countries (considering a 17 million population here), but that could be because some banks also have their own system. (Tikkie works with all banks and uses iDeal. Requests can be sent over whatsapp and similar systems.)
- interfixus 9y ago
  Only 5.7 million people, actually, but otherwise, yeah. Note, though, that it's not really just Peter paying Paul, as the transaction is still between their respective banks with everything that entails. And a MobilePay account is actually tied to a specific payment card. I have had a MobilePay transaction refused (and from a public institution, no less) because my account did not involve a Dankort, the only payment card the institution deemed acceptable.
  - arghwhat 9y ago
    Oh, damn, I mixed up the DK population with the world population. Just makes the number more incredible. :) Anyway, it is really Peter paying Paul. It is just centralized and in a stable currency, with all the benefits that entail, such as instant execution, ease of use and predictable outcome. It of course also has the downside: There are gate keepers, in the form of Danske Bank and other banks involved. Bitcoin is also Peter paying Paul, but decentralized/p2p. And, frankly, this is its Achilles heel as much as it is its greatest feature. You might be misunderstanding how MobilePay engaged with payment cards. Things have changed a bit since the start, but MobilePay originally asked for your dankort info to extract bank account information. It performed direct bank transfers, screwing Nets over for transaction fees (anything screwing over Nets is good for mankind). However, because people demanded the support, "real" credit cards was later added (not sure if only for shopping), but they're likely letting stores eat the fees. Thus, they probably let the store pick whether they support cards that cost them fees. In general, the MobilePay used for stores is very different in function from the one used between users. (I was in fintech with companies like Nets as client when MobilePay launched, but that is not the case anymore, so my info may be out of date.)
    - interfixus 9y ago
      Thanks, I may need to review my understanding.

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago

> I want that last vestige of freedom Freedom always was an aristocratic privilege. What they sold to the proles - with heavy advertising, at a price up to your life - was a cheap knock-off.

arghwhat 9y ago

As mentioned elsewhere, "Peter-pays-Paul" is huge in Scandinavia. MobilePay, a person-to-person payment app in Denmark, is a huge deal here. It had 3 million users in 2016 (out of 7 million people!), and its second-priority shop payment feature (that arrived much later) is challenging credit cards. It's used for everything from selling used goods to splitting bills. Swish, the Swedish equivalent, has 4 million users. Vipp, the Norwegian equivalent, has 2.7 million users. Peter-pays-Paul has huge demand here. Bitcoin is just a terrible solution to that problem. (uggedal provided the Swedish and Norwegian numbers).

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mcv 9y ago
Tikkie, a Dutch equivalent, has 2 million users. Not as much as the Scandinavian countries (considering a 17 million population here), but that could be because some banks also have their own system. (Tikkie works with all banks and uses iDeal. Requests can be sent over whatsapp and similar systems.)
interfixus 9y ago
Only 5.7 million people, actually, but otherwise, yeah. Note, though, that it's not really just Peter paying Paul, as the transaction is still between their respective banks with everything that entails. And a MobilePay account is actually tied to a specific payment card. I have had a MobilePay transaction refused (and from a public institution, no less) because my account did not involve a Dankort, the only payment card the institution deemed acceptable.
- arghwhat 9y ago
  Oh, damn, I mixed up the DK population with the world population. Just makes the number more incredible. :) Anyway, it is really Peter paying Paul. It is just centralized and in a stable currency, with all the benefits that entail, such as instant execution, ease of use and predictable outcome. It of course also has the downside: There are gate keepers, in the form of Danske Bank and other banks involved. Bitcoin is also Peter paying Paul, but decentralized/p2p. And, frankly, this is its Achilles heel as much as it is its greatest feature. You might be misunderstanding how MobilePay engaged with payment cards. Things have changed a bit since the start, but MobilePay originally asked for your dankort info to extract bank account information. It performed direct bank transfers, screwing Nets over for transaction fees (anything screwing over Nets is good for mankind). However, because people demanded the support, "real" credit cards was later added (not sure if only for shopping), but they're likely letting stores eat the fees. Thus, they probably let the store pick whether they support cards that cost them fees. In general, the MobilePay used for stores is very different in function from the one used between users. (I was in fintech with companies like Nets as client when MobilePay launched, but that is not the case anymore, so my info may be out of date.)
  - interfixus 9y ago
    Thanks, I may need to review my understanding.