4 ms·

Looks like most people in this comments section are afraid to pass for a luddite if they don't support cashless transactions. But the argument about centralized

Looks like most people in this comments section are afraid to pass for a luddite if they don't support cashless transactions. But the argument about centralized system watching every payment you make is still valid. Why are people so eager to jump off something and irreversibly lose its good properties (anonymity, decentralization and reliability in case of analogue money) and that just for the sake of minor comfort? The idea of all that data about my shopping habits and credit history being held and possibly judged by someone makes me cringe. Apparently all this recent Facebook business and all similar cases teach people nothing. They hope that being a good boy/gal and having nothing to hide is all they and subsequent generations need, forever.

Viliam1234 9y ago
It's not just "centralized system watching every payment you make", but also a possibility that it could veto your payment. The crude option is when 'undesirable' citizens will not be given credit cards, or if all their cards 'accidentally' stop functioning the same day to teach them a lesson. When no shop sells you food for money, your options are to beg, steal, or starve. A more sophisticated option could be 'intelligent' credit cards that only allow you to buy approved stuff (otherwise the payment will fail); with the approval being general, or individual for each citizens, or depending on social class or whatever. This wouldn't happen overnight, but we can get there gradually... it may start by politically acceptable stuff like "you can't buy alcohol or guns using welfare money" and progress slowly.
- geomark 9y ago
  When China starts going cashless we will get a look at exactly this scenario since it will very likely link with their citizenship score which is already implemented.
- Faark 9y ago
  So many requirements for digital cash - You want control to fight fraud/bad actors - You don't want to much control for a single party (incl gov) - It should work without necessary global communications (e.g. post disaster; global consensus like Bitcoin won't help there) - Users want privacy - Usual stuff like no double spending - Transparency would be nice to verify correctness and no abuse by your bank - Easy to use We'll have a hard time finding a replacement satisfying them all. I wonder what we'll be willing to give up.
rhacker 9y ago
The problem too is that too many people believe our laws are just and moral. The US economy has become a slave to our ability to invent laws and automated ways to monitor and enforce them. And in a world where you already know 2% of the population is breaking a would be law, from a certain perspective the act of lawmaking is actually profit generation. It's the perfect crime.
- nugi 9y ago
  The 'perfect crime' would be victimless. This is just corrupt legislators. Lets not glorify it.
henrikschroder 9y ago
The best feature of cash is that it allows you to make anonymous purchases, and to make illegal purchases. "But I have nothing to hide! I don't want to buy illegal stuff!" Not right now, maybe. But who decides what's illegal and what's not? A cashless society is one more step towards turn-key fascism, which is why it has to be opposed. Also worth noting is that the chairman of the central bank of Sweden basically told the banks to stop whining and continue handling cash.
- greggarious 9y ago
  You can have valid reasons to want to hide legal purchases. Alcohol is a legal drug, but how will you feel when your credit card company sells your purchase history to some analytics firm that deems you high risk for health issues, sells that data to your insurer, and your rates go up? When I go to a bar or a McDonalds I pay cash for this reason.
  - Thiez 9y ago
    > how will you feel when your credit card company sells your purchase history to some analytics firm that deems you high risk for health issues, sells that data to your insurer, and your rates go up? I feel confused that you have this very accurate description of a problem ("companies sell your personal data") and your solution is "we must hide from the companies" instead of "we must enact laws to restrict dealing in personal data".
    - greggarious 9y ago
      Do you have any data to support your assertion that policy based measures (versus technical measures) are solution? Facebook used contracts instead of technical controls to protect data, and we've seen how well that worked :) I'll admit many on HN are obsessed with overly technical solutions, but "using cash" seems much simpler than "establish a complex regulatory regime".
      - Thiez 9y ago
hrktb 9y ago
Cash and credit cards are not the only options, anonymous and “offline” payment is also possible. Japan does is for two decades now, any other country could have done the same when introducing crypted transportation cards. Clinging to an old and limited system because more technically advanced options seem hard and chalenging is a luddite attitude, whatever way you turn it. The way forward is not to go back to cash, but to find or build a better alternative.

Viliam1234 9y ago

It's not just "centralized system watching every payment you make", but also a possibility that it could veto your payment. The crude option is when 'undesirable' citizens will not be given credit cards, or if all their cards 'accidentally' stop functioning the same day to teach them a lesson. When no shop sells you food for money, your options are to beg, steal, or starve. A more sophisticated option could be 'intelligent' credit cards that only allow you to buy approved stuff (otherwise the payment will fail); with the approval being general, or individual for each citizens, or depending on social class or whatever. This wouldn't happen overnight, but we can get there gradually... it may start by politically acceptable stuff like "you can't buy alcohol or guns using welfare money" and progress slowly.

geomark 9y ago
When China starts going cashless we will get a look at exactly this scenario since it will very likely link with their citizenship score which is already implemented.
Faark 9y ago
So many requirements for digital cash - You want control to fight fraud/bad actors - You don't want to much control for a single party (incl gov) - It should work without necessary global communications (e.g. post disaster; global consensus like Bitcoin won't help there) - Users want privacy - Usual stuff like no double spending - Transparency would be nice to verify correctness and no abuse by your bank - Easy to use We'll have a hard time finding a replacement satisfying them all. I wonder what we'll be willing to give up.

rhacker 9y ago

The problem too is that too many people believe our laws are just and moral. The US economy has become a slave to our ability to invent laws and automated ways to monitor and enforce them. And in a world where you already know 2% of the population is breaking a would be law, from a certain perspective the act of lawmaking is actually profit generation. It's the perfect crime.

nugi 9y ago
The 'perfect crime' would be victimless. This is just corrupt legislators. Lets not glorify it.

henrikschroder 9y ago

The best feature of cash is that it allows you to make anonymous purchases, and to make illegal purchases. "But I have nothing to hide! I don't want to buy illegal stuff!" Not right now, maybe. But who decides what's illegal and what's not? A cashless society is one more step towards turn-key fascism, which is why it has to be opposed. Also worth noting is that the chairman of the central bank of Sweden basically told the banks to stop whining and continue handling cash.

greggarious 9y ago
You can have valid reasons to want to hide legal purchases. Alcohol is a legal drug, but how will you feel when your credit card company sells your purchase history to some analytics firm that deems you high risk for health issues, sells that data to your insurer, and your rates go up? When I go to a bar or a McDonalds I pay cash for this reason.
- Thiez 9y ago
  > how will you feel when your credit card company sells your purchase history to some analytics firm that deems you high risk for health issues, sells that data to your insurer, and your rates go up? I feel confused that you have this very accurate description of a problem ("companies sell your personal data") and your solution is "we must hide from the companies" instead of "we must enact laws to restrict dealing in personal data".
  - greggarious 9y ago
    Do you have any data to support your assertion that policy based measures (versus technical measures) are solution? Facebook used contracts instead of technical controls to protect data, and we've seen how well that worked :) I'll admit many on HN are obsessed with overly technical solutions, but "using cash" seems much simpler than "establish a complex regulatory regime".
    - Thiez 9y ago

hrktb 9y ago

Cash and credit cards are not the only options, anonymous and “offline” payment is also possible. Japan does is for two decades now, any other country could have done the same when introducing crypted transportation cards. Clinging to an old and limited system because more technically advanced options seem hard and chalenging is a luddite attitude, whatever way you turn it. The way forward is not to go back to cash, but to find or build a better alternative.