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OR millennials are moving to the exurbs not because they want to, but because cities are too expensive when you have a family and don’t want roommates. Much of

OR millennials are moving to the exurbs not because they want to, but because cities are too expensive when you have a family and don’t want roommates. Much of the rest of the world is happy to raise families in cities... why not here? The solution should be to build infrastructure and improve the schools in urban cores, not invest in suburbs.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mistahchris 9y ago
Yeah, in my city, people my age (late 20s, early 30s) aren't moving to the suburbs because they want to, but because they're forced to by the insanely high cost of living in the urban area compared to the wages offered here. From what I gather, this is true in pretty much every city in the US that I know people in.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Don't doubt your experience at all (while driving today was going back and forth on whether I'd prefer moving back into the city or further into the suburbs, and honestly not sure), but there's lots of people who just like the suburbs. Yeah, there's lots of wasted space and it's very residential, but that wasted space is nice in a way. It's a much quieter place. Especially when raising kids, unless you can move into the nicest neighborhoods, the burbs are an easy option for many people and not just due to money. I've lived in a very urban area and I miss it but I really don't. It's harder to get away there. I don't mind helping homeless people, but dealing with aggressively mentally ill people every other time you step out the door or drug addicts screaming at each other in the middle of the night is not something that's enjoyable. That happens in the city, I've never experienced it the suburbs. It just seemed like you always had to be on alert. Maybe that says a lot about how we handle social problems, but it can't be easily discounted.
gipp 9y ago
You're not really contradicting the article? They address that possibility and don't really ascribe a particular cause: > If people are moving to suburbs and exurbs because the urban cores are "full," with high rents and home prices, then the question becomes: Do politicians fight anti-development interests like homeowners who have sought to block construction in their neighborhoods?
- OldSchoolJohnny 9y ago
  We need a short pithy term for people who comment on the title link and don't read the article, it's a modern plague.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - macroexpanse 9y ago
    Some suggestions: 1. Skimmer 2. Scroller 3. Titlefiend
    - RhysU 9y ago
      Titlefiend. I am often guilty of titlefiending.
  - sf_rob 9y ago
    Would be fun to write a content aggregation site where you had to answer a question about the article before commenting like some sites are doing with their own internal forums.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - chapill 9y ago
    I'm sorry, but that's against the HN guidelines. >Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." It's annoying that pointing that out to the didn't reader is against the rules, but derailing the discussion by not reading is perfectly okay. But what do I know? Am shadowbanned most of the time.
dionidium 9y ago
>improve the schools in urban cores This is the one that matters in the Rust Belt. It's not more expensive, really, to live in a trendy neighborhood in St. Louis or Cincinnati or whatever, than it would be to live in a nice suburb, but the schools are terrible. It's a cliche in these towns that even the most "City committed" folks move out when they start a family.
bluGill 9y ago
Easy to say, but it is hard to reverse. Those currently in cities don't have kids (yet?), and thus aren't interested in fixing the problems. Either they don't care at all, or they care more about who will keep the taxes low (since taxes translate into rent). For those that will eventually have kids this is to their detriment, but for the others. Confounding this is the fact that those who do send their kids to city schools are poor because of lack of education and they are passing their lack of value for education to their kids. Even if one person does stay in the city it will be hard for their kids when all the peer pressure doesn't value education (this isn't insurmountable, but it is a negative parents have to fight) Remember in the US schools have a significant amount of local control. The federal or state government in large part cannot step in and say "do thing this way" - even if we agreed on what is the right thing to do (we don't) the power to get anything done is lacking where it is needed. In short there are significant headwinds that you would have to counter. You alone cannot do it, and getting enough other people interested is hard.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Remember in the US schools have a significant amount of local control. The federal or state government in large part cannot step in and say "do thing this way" Not only can state government generally do so (and, in fact, most states do set standards and methods and control some funding decisions of local districts), some state governments have processed by which they will go beyond dictating the standards and methods, etc., to actually assume direct control of local school districts.
JustAnotherPat 9y ago
There are plenty of cities where raising a family is doable. Albany, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, St. Louis, even Chicago. Of course you're talking about NYC, San Fran, and LA and therein lies the problem.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  People like good weather, and people like being around those who are competing at the highest levels, perhaps hoping they will also strike it big.
- rjbwork 9y ago
  Even in Atlanta, we're seeing pretty insane rent increases. It's hard to find anything under 1000. I pay just a tiny bit less than that just to rent a room in someone's house.
- mtberatwork 9y ago
  Chicago is quite expensive unless you live very far out or are willing to compromise on less desirable areas to live. I'm not sure the employment opportunities in these other cities are anywhere near the levels of the coasts though. Perhaps things have changed a bit recently, but my understanding is that most Midwestern areas suffer from brain drain issues.
CuriouslyC 9y ago
Research exists that indicates people choose to move to suburbs when they have a family for many reasons besides financial. Suburbs are viewed as safer and more private, and additional outdoor space is valued over location proximity. On the other hand, research indicates people choose to live in cities for career advancement and to find a mate.
- Steltek 9y ago
  Cities have a lot to offer kids as well. My kids will have independence from not being tied to a car. Schools/friends are an easy walk away; it doesn't have a "drop off" lane. Enriching family trips to museums, zoos, aquariums, parks, etc are all a train ride away with free passes from the local library. If the research is representative of people's opinions, then perhaps this is a failure of marketing.
  - francisofascii 9y ago
    Agree. It makes me sad to think that the "drop off" lane is a daily experience for many American parents and kids.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      Sorry, what’s wrong with the drop-off lane? Is it better or worse for kids than getting lunged at by a mentally troubled homeless guy?
scythe 9y ago
>Much of the rest of the world is happy to raise families in cities Even in the Nordic countries, smaller towns have a higher birth rate than cities: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00324720701571749 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0032472070157174... Urbanism has always been associated with lower birth rates across nations from the US to Europe to China.
- toasterlovin 9y ago
  Yup. Cities are population sinks.
michaelcampbell 9y ago
> Much of the rest of the world is happy to raise families in cities... why not here? Do you really need to ask that? "We" have the land and the area for people, a lot of "the rest of the world" does not. For other reasons, schooling and crime are such that for those that want families, cities are less than ideal than the suburbs. The ability to get around is relatively cheap. And the economics reflect that. So you can anguish in your "what should be", but ultimately it mostly comes down to money and incentives.
- smileysteve 9y ago
  > For other reasons, schooling and crime are such that for those that want families, cities are less than ideal than the suburbs. Translated: White Flight. There are great (public and private) schools in NYC, the Bronx, and Brooklyn. Many of the cities with "poor" inner city schools are also cities where white flight and highway riots hit the worst.
  - geggam 9y ago
    Why is it white flight and not those who have the means flight ? Always with the race.... its obtusive
    - pseudalopex 9y ago
      Because money wasn't enough. Banks, real estate developers, and white buyers and sellers routinely discriminated against non-whites through practices like redlining and blockbusting.
      - geggam 9y ago
        History... and the word Slave came from the word Slavic... Today this behavior is illegal and perpetuating that stereotype reinforces racism
        s2g 9y ago
matte_black 9y ago
IMO cities are crap if you have certain hobbies. If you want to have a garden, or a wood shop, or race around RC cars or drones, or big pets, a city just won’t work well for you. Most people are happy in cities because their lives aren’t much more than sleeping, eating, going to work, and then maybe going to some social events or watching tv, which is a perfect description of millennial life so far.
- Reason077 9y ago
  "If you want to have a garden, or a wood shop, or race around RC cars or drones, or big pets, a city just won’t work well for you." Also, if you like loud motorcycles, could you please f$%k off to the suburbs. Thanks.
- larrymyers 9y ago
  I'm not sure what city you live in, but in Chicago there are plenty of community gardens, cultural centers with workshops, and lots and lots of open park space to play with drones. I see plenty of medium and large dogs running with their owners on the lakeshore trail, and most parks have fenced off dedicated dog parks. Cities work fine for all these things, it just requires that the city has shared space for people with hobbies that don't fit in an apartment.
  - madengr 9y ago
    Putting up ham radio antennas is difficult enough in the suburbs, and damn near impossible in the cities. It didn't used to be that way; you could once string up wires between buildings and no one would care.
    - ChickeNES 9y ago
      It's 2018, who would bother with ham radio anymore?
      - gamma_function 9y ago
        Ham radio is often a gateway (and a destination, too) for people interested in electrical engineering.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

mistahchris 9y ago

Yeah, in my city, people my age (late 20s, early 30s) aren't moving to the suburbs because they want to, but because they're forced to by the insanely high cost of living in the urban area compared to the wages offered here. From what I gather, this is true in pretty much every city in the US that I know people in.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Don't doubt your experience at all (while driving today was going back and forth on whether I'd prefer moving back into the city or further into the suburbs, and honestly not sure), but there's lots of people who just like the suburbs. Yeah, there's lots of wasted space and it's very residential, but that wasted space is nice in a way. It's a much quieter place. Especially when raising kids, unless you can move into the nicest neighborhoods, the burbs are an easy option for many people and not just due to money. I've lived in a very urban area and I miss it but I really don't. It's harder to get away there. I don't mind helping homeless people, but dealing with aggressively mentally ill people every other time you step out the door or drug addicts screaming at each other in the middle of the night is not something that's enjoyable. That happens in the city, I've never experienced it the suburbs. It just seemed like you always had to be on alert. Maybe that says a lot about how we handle social problems, but it can't be easily discounted.

gipp 9y ago

You're not really contradicting the article? They address that possibility and don't really ascribe a particular cause: > If people are moving to suburbs and exurbs because the urban cores are "full," with high rents and home prices, then the question becomes: Do politicians fight anti-development interests like homeowners who have sought to block construction in their neighborhoods?

OldSchoolJohnny 9y ago
We need a short pithy term for people who comment on the title link and don't read the article, it's a modern plague.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- macroexpanse 9y ago
  Some suggestions: 1. Skimmer 2. Scroller 3. Titlefiend
  - RhysU 9y ago
    Titlefiend. I am often guilty of titlefiending.
- sf_rob 9y ago
  Would be fun to write a content aggregation site where you had to answer a question about the article before commenting like some sites are doing with their own internal forums.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- chapill 9y ago
  I'm sorry, but that's against the HN guidelines. >Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." It's annoying that pointing that out to the didn't reader is against the rules, but derailing the discussion by not reading is perfectly okay. But what do I know? Am shadowbanned most of the time.

dionidium 9y ago

>improve the schools in urban cores This is the one that matters in the Rust Belt. It's not more expensive, really, to live in a trendy neighborhood in St. Louis or Cincinnati or whatever, than it would be to live in a nice suburb, but the schools are terrible. It's a cliche in these towns that even the most "City committed" folks move out when they start a family.

bluGill 9y ago

Easy to say, but it is hard to reverse. Those currently in cities don't have kids (yet?), and thus aren't interested in fixing the problems. Either they don't care at all, or they care more about who will keep the taxes low (since taxes translate into rent). For those that will eventually have kids this is to their detriment, but for the others. Confounding this is the fact that those who do send their kids to city schools are poor because of lack of education and they are passing their lack of value for education to their kids. Even if one person does stay in the city it will be hard for their kids when all the peer pressure doesn't value education (this isn't insurmountable, but it is a negative parents have to fight) Remember in the US schools have a significant amount of local control. The federal or state government in large part cannot step in and say "do thing this way" - even if we agreed on what is the right thing to do (we don't) the power to get anything done is lacking where it is needed. In short there are significant headwinds that you would have to counter. You alone cannot do it, and getting enough other people interested is hard.

dragonwriter 9y ago
> Remember in the US schools have a significant amount of local control. The federal or state government in large part cannot step in and say "do thing this way" Not only can state government generally do so (and, in fact, most states do set standards and methods and control some funding decisions of local districts), some state governments have processed by which they will go beyond dictating the standards and methods, etc., to actually assume direct control of local school districts.

JustAnotherPat 9y ago

There are plenty of cities where raising a family is doable. Albany, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, St. Louis, even Chicago. Of course you're talking about NYC, San Fran, and LA and therein lies the problem.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
People like good weather, and people like being around those who are competing at the highest levels, perhaps hoping they will also strike it big.
rjbwork 9y ago
Even in Atlanta, we're seeing pretty insane rent increases. It's hard to find anything under 1000. I pay just a tiny bit less than that just to rent a room in someone's house.
mtberatwork 9y ago
Chicago is quite expensive unless you live very far out or are willing to compromise on less desirable areas to live. I'm not sure the employment opportunities in these other cities are anywhere near the levels of the coasts though. Perhaps things have changed a bit recently, but my understanding is that most Midwestern areas suffer from brain drain issues.

CuriouslyC 9y ago

Research exists that indicates people choose to move to suburbs when they have a family for many reasons besides financial. Suburbs are viewed as safer and more private, and additional outdoor space is valued over location proximity. On the other hand, research indicates people choose to live in cities for career advancement and to find a mate.

Steltek 9y ago
Cities have a lot to offer kids as well. My kids will have independence from not being tied to a car. Schools/friends are an easy walk away; it doesn't have a "drop off" lane. Enriching family trips to museums, zoos, aquariums, parks, etc are all a train ride away with free passes from the local library. If the research is representative of people's opinions, then perhaps this is a failure of marketing.
- francisofascii 9y ago
  Agree. It makes me sad to think that the "drop off" lane is a daily experience for many American parents and kids.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Sorry, what’s wrong with the drop-off lane? Is it better or worse for kids than getting lunged at by a mentally troubled homeless guy?

scythe 9y ago

>Much of the rest of the world is happy to raise families in cities Even in the Nordic countries, smaller towns have a higher birth rate than cities: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00324720701571749 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0032472070157174... Urbanism has always been associated with lower birth rates across nations from the US to Europe to China.

toasterlovin 9y ago
Yup. Cities are population sinks.

michaelcampbell 9y ago

> Much of the rest of the world is happy to raise families in cities... why not here? Do you really need to ask that? "We" have the land and the area for people, a lot of "the rest of the world" does not. For other reasons, schooling and crime are such that for those that want families, cities are less than ideal than the suburbs. The ability to get around is relatively cheap. And the economics reflect that. So you can anguish in your "what should be", but ultimately it mostly comes down to money and incentives.

smileysteve 9y ago
> For other reasons, schooling and crime are such that for those that want families, cities are less than ideal than the suburbs. Translated: White Flight. There are great (public and private) schools in NYC, the Bronx, and Brooklyn. Many of the cities with "poor" inner city schools are also cities where white flight and highway riots hit the worst.
- geggam 9y ago
  Why is it white flight and not those who have the means flight ? Always with the race.... its obtusive
  - pseudalopex 9y ago
    Because money wasn't enough. Banks, real estate developers, and white buyers and sellers routinely discriminated against non-whites through practices like redlining and blockbusting.
    - geggam 9y ago
      History... and the word Slave came from the word Slavic... Today this behavior is illegal and perpetuating that stereotype reinforces racism
      - s2g 9y ago

matte_black 9y ago

IMO cities are crap if you have certain hobbies. If you want to have a garden, or a wood shop, or race around RC cars or drones, or big pets, a city just won’t work well for you. Most people are happy in cities because their lives aren’t much more than sleeping, eating, going to work, and then maybe going to some social events or watching tv, which is a perfect description of millennial life so far.

Reason077 9y ago
"If you want to have a garden, or a wood shop, or race around RC cars or drones, or big pets, a city just won’t work well for you." Also, if you like loud motorcycles, could you please f$%k off to the suburbs. Thanks.
larrymyers 9y ago
I'm not sure what city you live in, but in Chicago there are plenty of community gardens, cultural centers with workshops, and lots and lots of open park space to play with drones. I see plenty of medium and large dogs running with their owners on the lakeshore trail, and most parks have fenced off dedicated dog parks. Cities work fine for all these things, it just requires that the city has shared space for people with hobbies that don't fit in an apartment.
- madengr 9y ago
  Putting up ham radio antennas is difficult enough in the suburbs, and damn near impossible in the cities. It didn't used to be that way; you could once string up wires between buildings and no one would care.
  - ChickeNES 9y ago
    It's 2018, who would bother with ham radio anymore?
    - gamma_function 9y ago
      Ham radio is often a gateway (and a destination, too) for people interested in electrical engineering.