3 ms·

The way the concrete is laid there gives mis-clues. I had a funny brain-wobble whilst watching the video, playing “hunt for the lane”. I guess the car decided

by beobab 9y ago

The way the concrete is laid there gives mis-clues. I had a funny brain-wobble whilst watching the video, playing “hunt for the lane”. I guess the car decided on the wrong one, with fatal consequences.

dx034 9y ago
When driving on roads with poor markings, I always follow other cars in front of me and in the other lanes to determine where my lane is. It's better to be in sync with the rest of the traffic than being "correct". I'm a bit confused that self driving cars (at least Teslas) appear to ignore that. Even if they were right and it was the correct lane, isn't following it more dangerous than staying in sync with traffic?
- alkonaut 9y ago
  The autopilot likely thought the other cars took an off-ramp and staid on the highway by following the left lane. I'm surprised there aren't a marked (hatched) area at the junction though. But regardless, the car has to be able to handle even mis-marked or temporary roadwork.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  That's a good way to get off the road - e.g. at night, in the snow. Seen that more than once - the previous car might be going straight because they lost traction in a curve. Do not overestimate the wisdom of the crowds, especially in a crowd of one.
  - dx034 9y ago
    That obviously doesn't apply if there's just one car. But if you have >10 cars in different lanes, I can't see how not following them would help you.
    - Piskvorrr 9y ago
      Fair point; not sure how much the current code is ready for incorporating the collective intent. Another issue: what if the other 10 cars are also self-driving into a wall? With such a low quorum, you are still vulnerable to the same issue as with a single car.
joshvm 9y ago
What should the road look like (without the low dynamic range of the camera)? It looks like that's a junction and there should be a hashed white area between the slip road and the highway. At least that's what you'd see in the UK. http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads/3/2/9/2/3292309/rule-132-reflective-road-studs-mark-the-lanes-and-edge-of-the-carriageway_orig.jpg http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads/3/2/9/2/3292309/rule-... In Britain you can contest parking fines if the double yellow lines are patchy, because arguably you could have missed them. There's also (I think) some laws that say that in order to enforce fines regions must be correctly marked, so the council has a duty to keep them well-painted. Seems like Tesla would argue similarly here.
- dx034 9y ago
  Parking fines are different as you cannot know about the restriction if there's no line. When driving, it's your responsibility to stay safe. If road markings and/or are bad, you have to slow down to avoid any danger. The government has some limited duty to keep roads intact but you cannot expect perfect road conditions at all times. It would've been different if there had been an object on the road that the police knew about but chose not to remove.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Indeed, that's what's supposed to be there. Alas, "do not worry about things that shouldn't exist but do, or about things that don't exist but should" is not a viable strategy on the road.
cup-of-tea 9y ago
Yeah, but that brain wobble will make you slow down and pay extra attention to your surroundings.
205guy 9y ago
10,000 human drivers a day handle it just fine. Again the night-time video is poor and a human can pick up so many other subtle clues. I'd bet all the non auto-pilot accidents at this spot are from drivers cutting across at the last second. But it appears the combination of lines and narrow barrier and the curve don't get properly detected by the car's algorithm. It's an edge case, but with the state of roads in the US and the lack of maintenance, I don't see how an algorithm can handle every possible case. I know lane markings are worn and faded all over my town.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Except when not - apparently this divider is frequently crashed into, by humans. Perhaps that is the underlying issue; combined with the softwarish happy-path mindset ("let's assume the road is adequately maintained, because that's somebody else's problem"), this gets lethal.

by beobab 9y ago

dx034 9y ago

When driving on roads with poor markings, I always follow other cars in front of me and in the other lanes to determine where my lane is. It's better to be in sync with the rest of the traffic than being "correct". I'm a bit confused that self driving cars (at least Teslas) appear to ignore that. Even if they were right and it was the correct lane, isn't following it more dangerous than staying in sync with traffic?

alkonaut 9y ago
The autopilot likely thought the other cars took an off-ramp and staid on the highway by following the left lane. I'm surprised there aren't a marked (hatched) area at the junction though. But regardless, the car has to be able to handle even mis-marked or temporary roadwork.
Piskvorrr 9y ago
That's a good way to get off the road - e.g. at night, in the snow. Seen that more than once - the previous car might be going straight because they lost traction in a curve. Do not overestimate the wisdom of the crowds, especially in a crowd of one.
- dx034 9y ago
  That obviously doesn't apply if there's just one car. But if you have >10 cars in different lanes, I can't see how not following them would help you.
  - Piskvorrr 9y ago
    Fair point; not sure how much the current code is ready for incorporating the collective intent. Another issue: what if the other 10 cars are also self-driving into a wall? With such a low quorum, you are still vulnerable to the same issue as with a single car.

joshvm 9y ago

What should the road look like (without the low dynamic range of the camera)? It looks like that's a junction and there should be a hashed white area between the slip road and the highway. At least that's what you'd see in the UK. http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads/3/2/9/2/3292309/rule-132-reflective-road-studs-mark-the-lanes-and-edge-of-the-carriageway_orig.jpg http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/uploads/3/2/9/2/3292309/rule-... In Britain you can contest parking fines if the double yellow lines are patchy, because arguably you could have missed them. There's also (I think) some laws that say that in order to enforce fines regions must be correctly marked, so the council has a duty to keep them well-painted. Seems like Tesla would argue similarly here.

dx034 9y ago
Parking fines are different as you cannot know about the restriction if there's no line. When driving, it's your responsibility to stay safe. If road markings and/or are bad, you have to slow down to avoid any danger. The government has some limited duty to keep roads intact but you cannot expect perfect road conditions at all times. It would've been different if there had been an object on the road that the police knew about but chose not to remove.
Piskvorrr 9y ago
Indeed, that's what's supposed to be there. Alas, "do not worry about things that shouldn't exist but do, or about things that don't exist but should" is not a viable strategy on the road.

cup-of-tea 9y ago

Yeah, but that brain wobble will make you slow down and pay extra attention to your surroundings.

205guy 9y ago

10,000 human drivers a day handle it just fine. Again the night-time video is poor and a human can pick up so many other subtle clues. I'd bet all the non auto-pilot accidents at this spot are from drivers cutting across at the last second. But it appears the combination of lines and narrow barrier and the curve don't get properly detected by the car's algorithm. It's an edge case, but with the state of roads in the US and the lack of maintenance, I don't see how an algorithm can handle every possible case. I know lane markings are worn and faded all over my town.

Piskvorrr 9y ago
Except when not - apparently this divider is frequently crashed into, by humans. Perhaps that is the underlying issue; combined with the softwarish happy-path mindset ("let's assume the road is adequately maintained, because that's somebody else's problem"), this gets lethal.