5 ms·

Tesla owner recreates fatal Autopilot crash, nearly crashes as well

30 points by salqadri 9y ago

programmer_dude 9y ago
Can you mount the camera properly and repeat this experiment?
EngineerBetter 9y ago
Autopilot is following the strong white line to the left, which is what the simple system is designed to do. It (currently) follows road markings, and/or the car in front. That's it, and that's why you don't leave it unattended - spoken as a Model X owner. As a Brit, I'm astounded at the US road design. You'd never see something like that over here, and I've never seen motorway (freeway) lane markers so worn away. Autopilot did what it is designed to do, which in this case was the wrong thing. The driver was not paying attention, which is easy to do when you have no physical buttons in the car and often operate a touchscreen. The poor state of the road also contributed, both with the lack of steel barrier and the worn-out markings. Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder? Would LIDAR have helped, or would the presented surface area of the concrete block be too small to act upon?
- danso 9y ago
  > Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder? Don't self-driving cars already navigate these situations successfully? I would guess that Google/Waymo/GM had been testing on the stretch of interstate where the Mountain View Tesla fatality occurred.
- trhway 9y ago
  >Would LIDAR have helped, or would the presented surface area of the concrete block be too small to act upon? from the beheading accident discussion couple years ago i remember that Tesla had radar in front. That incident back then happened supposedly because the radar was observing only low-height sector along the road surface. The concrete divider seems to be exactly the thing that the radar would see. LIDAR as well as stereo of course would see that divider easily. It seems at this point though that Tesla's autopilot is only something like single camera image recognition, probably still is or like a MobilEye.
  - EngineerBetter 9y ago
    > Tesla's autopilot is only something like single camera image recognition It absolutely is. Even the AP 2.0/2.5 hardware only uses one camera at the moment.
- simion314 9y ago
  What will happen if it stars snowing? The self driving cars will be stuck on the roads?(I mean in the future where the passenger can't drive the car back home) Following the line is too basic for a self driving car, I remember some students having small toys programmed to drive toy roads by following the lines, and that was more then 10 years ago. Tesla should have detailed maps of this big roads, so maybe when the maps and what the car detects do not match it should be less confident, the collision detection should be extra sensitive, the driver should be alarmed, the car should slow down, if they have problems on this big roads then they need a new kind of hardware and software to navigate any medium road.
  - EngineerBetter 9y ago
    > Tesla should have detailed maps of this big roads Their imminent software update adds exactly that. They took their navigation data in house because the atuff they used before wasn't detailed enough.
    - simion314 9y ago
      I mean the maps data they collect from the other Tesla cars and not the GPS navigation, they said that in that accident a big number of Tesla cars pass that point daily and they also collected this navigation data for training, so I assumed they have this detailed maps and the car should know what to expect(I am sure this is a hard problem ) but maybe they need to be more cautious when there is a mismatch(like if 2000 cars used this side of the road but now it appears some line appeared that does not match, lets safely slow down and ask the driver to take over and analyze what is wrong)
- eesmith 9y ago
  From two years ago, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-infrastructure-insig/wheres-the-lane-self-driving-cars-confused-by-shabby-u-s-roadways-idUSKCN0WX131 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-infrastr... , titled "Where's the lane? Self-driving cars confused by shabby U.S. roadways": > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Volvo’s North American CEO, Lex Kerssemakers, lost his cool as the automaker’s semi-autonomous prototype sporadically refused to drive itself during a press event at the Los Angeles Auto Show. > “It can’t find the lane markings!” Kerssemakers griped to Mayor Eric Garcetti, who was at the wheel. “You need to paint the bloody roads here!” > Shoddy infrastructure has become a roadblock to the development of self-driving cars, vexing engineers and adding time and cost. Poor markings and uneven signage on the 3 million miles of paved roads in the United States are forcing automakers to develop more sophisticated sensors and maps to compensate, industry executives say. > Tesla CEO Elon Musk recently called the mundane issue of faded lane markings “crazy,” complaining they confused his semi-autonomous cars. > An estimated 65 percent of U.S. roads are in poor condition, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation, with the transportation infrastructure system rated 12th in the World Economic Forum’s 2014-2015 global competitiveness report. > Tesla, Volvo, Mercedes, Audi (VOWG_p.DE) and others are fielding vehicles that can drive on highways, change lanes and park without human help. But they are easily flummoxed by faded lane markers, damaged or noncompliant signs or lights, and the many quirks of a roadway infrastructure managed by thousands of state and local bureaucracies. > In other developed countries, greater standardization of road signs and markings makes it easier for robot cars to navigate. In the U.S., however, traffic lights can be aligned vertically, horizontally or “dog-house” style in two columns. Pavement markings use paint with different degrees of reflectivity - or don’t exist at all. You ask "Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder?" No, no they won't. Rather, why aren't they already being kept in better condition for the sake of public safety? The onus will be on the car manufacturer, who in turn will need to use more expensive sensors, so the cost will be end up with the car owner. Because in the US, we've been brainw^Wtaught that government is worthless, and powerless against The Free Market.
EngineerBetter 9y ago
I'm danged if I'd let it get so close to disaster if I was recreating this. One tug of the steering wheel in the wrong direction is enough for me to assert myself and get the car to cancel Autopilot.
nopriorarrests 9y ago
This article is about old video, already discussed here in detail. I thought it could be about a new one. So, couple of hours ago another video surfaced on /r/teslamotors, filmed at original location of Model X crash, with very detailed slow-motion. And autopilot acts (presumably) the same way as on Model X, trying to drive the car into solid obstacle. Video: https://youtu.be/VVJSjeHDvfY https://youtu.be/VVJSjeHDvfY Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_model_s_failing_in_autopilot_where_the_model_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_mode...
danso 9y ago
Discussion thread when the video was posted here the other day (109 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16732436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16732436
- simion314 9y ago
  I wanted to post same link, the post was gone from first page much faster then other less interesting posts IMO so I am suspecting that maybe Tesla fans are downvoting discussions about this crashes. In this case someone reproduced the bug, the blinking lights are a timed warning not related to what is on the road.
  - merricksb 9y ago
    People tend to flag copycat posts about topics that have already been posted/discussed extensively. It's less about "Telsa fans" and more about "HN fans" who prefer the site to be focused on discussions about new, interesting things rather than repetitive outrage-inducing things. None of this is to say the topic isn't important, but a topic's importance is separate to how much value there is in discussing it repeatedly here, particularly when it stirs such heated emotions in some people.
    - simion314 9y ago
      This video was the first timeThat topic was first time when it appeared, no one commented that it was here before and linked to that page, it was an actual video so not an opinion blog or media spin. The video was very clear and it showed a real problem, the system followed the wrong line on the roads and the comments were answering explaing what they thing it happened, what the capabilities and limitation of Tesla radar are( I learned that Tesla has a radar) and of course there were the skeptic comments that I think are the cause of those dislikes, I don't think is good for the community to disaprove of well thought skeptic comments, some of the readers here studied AI in universities and worked with AI and know about it's limitations and they can express the skepticism that the self driving hardware and software is not ready yet.

30 points by salqadri 9y ago

Can you mount the camera properly and repeat this experiment?

Autopilot is following the strong white line to the left, which is what the simple system is designed to do. It (currently) follows road markings, and/or the car in front. That's it, and that's why you don't leave it unattended - spoken as a Model X owner. As a Brit, I'm astounded at the US road design. You'd never see something like that over here, and I've never seen motorway (freeway) lane markers so worn away. Autopilot did what it is designed to do, which in this case was the wrong thing. The driver was not paying attention, which is easy to do when you have no physical buttons in the car and often operate a touchscreen. The poor state of the road also contributed, both with the lack of steel barrier and the worn-out markings. Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder? Would LIDAR have helped, or would the presented surface area of the concrete block be too small to act upon?

danso 9y ago
> Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder? Don't self-driving cars already navigate these situations successfully? I would guess that Google/Waymo/GM had been testing on the stretch of interstate where the Mountain View Tesla fatality occurred.
trhway 9y ago
>Would LIDAR have helped, or would the presented surface area of the concrete block be too small to act upon? from the beheading accident discussion couple years ago i remember that Tesla had radar in front. That incident back then happened supposedly because the radar was observing only low-height sector along the road surface. The concrete divider seems to be exactly the thing that the radar would see. LIDAR as well as stereo of course would see that divider easily. It seems at this point though that Tesla's autopilot is only something like single camera image recognition, probably still is or like a MobilEye.
- EngineerBetter 9y ago
  > Tesla's autopilot is only something like single camera image recognition It absolutely is. Even the AP 2.0/2.5 hardware only uses one camera at the moment.
simion314 9y ago
What will happen if it stars snowing? The self driving cars will be stuck on the roads?(I mean in the future where the passenger can't drive the car back home) Following the line is too basic for a self driving car, I remember some students having small toys programmed to drive toy roads by following the lines, and that was more then 10 years ago. Tesla should have detailed maps of this big roads, so maybe when the maps and what the car detects do not match it should be less confident, the collision detection should be extra sensitive, the driver should be alarmed, the car should slow down, if they have problems on this big roads then they need a new kind of hardware and software to navigate any medium road.
- EngineerBetter 9y ago
  > Tesla should have detailed maps of this big roads Their imminent software update adds exactly that. They took their navigation data in house because the atuff they used before wasn't detailed enough.
  - simion314 9y ago
    I mean the maps data they collect from the other Tesla cars and not the GPS navigation, they said that in that accident a big number of Tesla cars pass that point daily and they also collected this navigation data for training, so I assumed they have this detailed maps and the car should know what to expect(I am sure this is a hard problem ) but maybe they need to be more cautious when there is a mismatch(like if 2000 cars used this side of the road but now it appears some line appeared that does not match, lets safely slow down and ask the driver to take over and analyze what is wrong)
eesmith 9y ago
From two years ago, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-infrastructure-insig/wheres-the-lane-self-driving-cars-confused-by-shabby-u-s-roadways-idUSKCN0WX131 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-autonomous-infrastr... , titled "Where's the lane? Self-driving cars confused by shabby U.S. roadways": > LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Volvo’s North American CEO, Lex Kerssemakers, lost his cool as the automaker’s semi-autonomous prototype sporadically refused to drive itself during a press event at the Los Angeles Auto Show. > “It can’t find the lane markings!” Kerssemakers griped to Mayor Eric Garcetti, who was at the wheel. “You need to paint the bloody roads here!” > Shoddy infrastructure has become a roadblock to the development of self-driving cars, vexing engineers and adding time and cost. Poor markings and uneven signage on the 3 million miles of paved roads in the United States are forcing automakers to develop more sophisticated sensors and maps to compensate, industry executives say. > Tesla CEO Elon Musk recently called the mundane issue of faded lane markings “crazy,” complaining they confused his semi-autonomous cars. > An estimated 65 percent of U.S. roads are in poor condition, according to the U.S. Department of Transportation, with the transportation infrastructure system rated 12th in the World Economic Forum’s 2014-2015 global competitiveness report. > Tesla, Volvo, Mercedes, Audi (VOWG_p.DE) and others are fielding vehicles that can drive on highways, change lanes and park without human help. But they are easily flummoxed by faded lane markers, damaged or noncompliant signs or lights, and the many quirks of a roadway infrastructure managed by thousands of state and local bureaucracies. > In other developed countries, greater standardization of road signs and markings makes it easier for robot cars to navigate. In the U.S., however, traffic lights can be aligned vertically, horizontally or “dog-house” style in two columns. Pavement markings use paint with different degrees of reflectivity - or don’t exist at all. You ask "Will road markings be kept in better condition for the sake of self-driving cars, I wonder?" No, no they won't. Rather, why aren't they already being kept in better condition for the sake of public safety? The onus will be on the car manufacturer, who in turn will need to use more expensive sensors, so the cost will be end up with the car owner. Because in the US, we've been brainw^Wtaught that government is worthless, and powerless against The Free Market.

EngineerBetter 9y ago

I'm danged if I'd let it get so close to disaster if I was recreating this. One tug of the steering wheel in the wrong direction is enough for me to assert myself and get the car to cancel Autopilot.

nopriorarrests 9y ago

This article is about old video, already discussed here in detail. I thought it could be about a new one. So, couple of hours ago another video surfaced on /r/teslamotors, filmed at original location of Model X crash, with very detailed slow-motion. And autopilot acts (presumably) the same way as on Model X, trying to drive the car into solid obstacle. Video: https://youtu.be/VVJSjeHDvfY https://youtu.be/VVJSjeHDvfY Thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_model_s_failing_in_autopilot_where_the_model_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_mode...

danso 9y ago

Discussion thread when the video was posted here the other day (109 comments): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16732436 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16732436

simion314 9y ago
I wanted to post same link, the post was gone from first page much faster then other less interesting posts IMO so I am suspecting that maybe Tesla fans are downvoting discussions about this crashes. In this case someone reproduced the bug, the blinking lights are a timed warning not related to what is on the road.
- merricksb 9y ago
  People tend to flag copycat posts about topics that have already been posted/discussed extensively. It's less about "Telsa fans" and more about "HN fans" who prefer the site to be focused on discussions about new, interesting things rather than repetitive outrage-inducing things. None of this is to say the topic isn't important, but a topic's importance is separate to how much value there is in discussing it repeatedly here, particularly when it stirs such heated emotions in some people.
  - simion314 9y ago
    This video was the first timeThat topic was first time when it appeared, no one commented that it was here before and linked to that page, it was an actual video so not an opinion blog or media spin. The video was very clear and it showed a real problem, the system followed the wrong line on the roads and the comments were answering explaing what they thing it happened, what the capabilities and limitation of Tesla radar are( I learned that Tesla has a radar) and of course there were the skeptic comments that I think are the cause of those dislikes, I don't think is good for the community to disaprove of well thought skeptic comments, some of the readers here studied AI in universities and worked with AI and know about it's limitations and they can express the skepticism that the self driving hardware and software is not ready yet.