4 ms·

I think this is how I most commonly recognize someone that is familiar with lxc +/- docker and containerization in general. A firm grasp of the fact that they'r

I think this is how I most commonly recognize someone that is familiar with lxc +/- docker and containerization in general. A firm grasp of the fact that they're just beefy processes, isolated wiht namespaces and cgroups is the best, most succint way to describe docker (without even mentioning the benefits), but it also requires that the hearer knows what namespaces and cgroups are. If I had to rank understanding in explanations of docker: 1. "Makes your application really portable"/other explanations that only cover the benefits of docker not how it works 2. "Lightweight VMs" 3. "LXC + some other stuff" 4. "processes + namespaces + cgroups (+/- image management tools, etc)" 100% agreed on the point you made, pretty sure docker+swarm and other orchestration efforts have basically lost the competition. Kubernetes just has the mind share, and even better than that -- it's actually good. Kubernetes also has multiple competing container runtimes all rushing to fit the CRI (Container Runtime Interface). Just some of the stuff out there: * cri-containerd - https://github.com/containerd/cri-containerd https://github.com/containerd/cri-containerd * runv (hypervisor based) - https://github.com/hyperhq/runv https://github.com/hyperhq/runv * clear containers (hypervisor based) - https://github.com/clearcontainers/runtime https://github.com/clearcontainers/runtime * kata containers (hypervisor based, collaboration of runv + clear container) - https://katacontainers.io/ https://katacontainers.io/ * frakti (combination of runv & docker, enabling switching @ runtime) - https://github.com/kubernetes/frakti https://github.com/kubernetes/frakti A bunch of the projects are in their infancy, but the CNCF/kubernetes and the community are doing the right thing investing in lots of them, and letting the good ones bubble to the top. I don't run a production kubernetes cluster but I've found cri-containerd to be really easy to use and haven't had any major problems with it, mostly small configuration things. The last one, frakti, gets me really excited, because it lets you be flexible about which containers run in more protected environments and which don't. Also really exciting is frakti v2 (https://github.com/kubernetes/frakti/tree/containerd-kata https://github.com/kubernetes/frakti/tree/containerd-kata), which is kata + containerd.

tyingq 9y ago
Kinda feels like I'm I a foreign country and run into someone that speaks my language :). Thanks for the additional info, like frakti, for example...didn't know about that. Explaining docker is frustrating for me because I was a Unix admin back in the 90's. So, for me, it's pretty easy to see what it is. And, it isn't new. There isn't much it does that Solaris zones or BSD jails, didn't do. And those predate docker by years. Namespaces, cgroups, and pivot_root. That's basically all of it. Kudos to docker for marketing it better. Explaining it, on the other hand, to a broad audience...
- hardwaresofton 9y ago
  Yeah I didn't either, until not too long ago but now I'm pretty excited to use it. As a person who wasn't a linux admin back in the 90s, and doesn't normally hang out on mailing lists, the first time I saw lxc was some random article on lwn.net (I don't hang out there, but they have some super high quality articles), and I definitely didn't put together how much of a difference it was poised to make, or even know why it was a good idea (people were still getting used to vagrant everywhere at the time) -- docker definitely did the community a service by bringing the hype train, if only so that once the hype subsided containers would be here to stay.
  - Annatar 9y ago
    As a person who wasn't a linux admin back in the 90s, Nobody was a Linux admin in the ‘90’s: we ran HP-UX, IRIX, OSF/1 DECUnix (and Ultrix), AIX, Solaris and NetBSD; those were our Linux we grew up on like you grew up on a Linux ISO on your parents’ PC bucket.
    - js2 9y ago
      I ran a small ISP on a pair of Linux (Slackware probably) boxes, a Livingston Portmaster, a bank of Hayes modems, and a T1 in the mid-90s. So some of us were Linux admins then.
      - tyingq 9y ago
        Me too. Maintained a small (100 or so) fleet of Slackware Linux desktops for a support org in the early 90's. Rare, but did exist. Was the install 13 1.44mb floppies? Seems to ring a bell. Lots of waiting for the prompt to switch out the floppy. And a more intimate relationship with "dd", "kermit", etc, than I remember ever encountering again. Also, whoever wrote x3270. Thank you!
      - Annatar 9y ago
        That's crazy: Linux isn't rightly usable even now 20+ years later, and you ran it in mid '90's when it could barely boot a shell reliably. And Slackware no less, which meant dumping tape archives everywhere instead of package management. Crazy.
incadenza 9y ago
I’m about a 1.5 Any good resources you could suggest for learning more about what you describe as the relevant areas?
- hardwaresofton 9y ago
  I want to point out that I'm by no means an expert -- the real experts are the people in the talks that I mentioned, the core contributors to the libraries. I think a good place to start is those talks (and stuff from any container-centric conferences), along with lots and lots of practice using containers. In general, I'm pretty sure if you read up on chrooting, processes on linux, process isolation on linux, LXC, then the relevant standards/tools that underly docker like runc (https://github.com/opencontainers/runc https://github.com/opencontainers/runc), you'll have a pretty deep understanding. Also, for day-to-day use, I honestly think you can do just light research on the above topics and start using docker and know way more than the average developer. As you use it more and more, you'll gain more intuition, and when you bump up against certain issues, you'll probably gain some intuition as to where things are going wrong (though honestly the toolchains are pretty stable now). The goal of a lot of these projects is to be so stable you don't have to worry about it, so I don't feel too guilty about it, in the same way I don't feel too guilty about not ever having cache-line-optimized a program in my life.

tyingq 9y ago

Kinda feels like I'm I a foreign country and run into someone that speaks my language :). Thanks for the additional info, like frakti, for example...didn't know about that. Explaining docker is frustrating for me because I was a Unix admin back in the 90's. So, for me, it's pretty easy to see what it is. And, it isn't new. There isn't much it does that Solaris zones or BSD jails, didn't do. And those predate docker by years. Namespaces, cgroups, and pivot_root. That's basically all of it. Kudos to docker for marketing it better. Explaining it, on the other hand, to a broad audience...

hardwaresofton 9y ago
Yeah I didn't either, until not too long ago but now I'm pretty excited to use it. As a person who wasn't a linux admin back in the 90s, and doesn't normally hang out on mailing lists, the first time I saw lxc was some random article on lwn.net (I don't hang out there, but they have some super high quality articles), and I definitely didn't put together how much of a difference it was poised to make, or even know why it was a good idea (people were still getting used to vagrant everywhere at the time) -- docker definitely did the community a service by bringing the hype train, if only so that once the hype subsided containers would be here to stay.
- Annatar 9y ago
  As a person who wasn't a linux admin back in the 90s, Nobody was a Linux admin in the ‘90’s: we ran HP-UX, IRIX, OSF/1 DECUnix (and Ultrix), AIX, Solaris and NetBSD; those were our Linux we grew up on like you grew up on a Linux ISO on your parents’ PC bucket.
  - js2 9y ago
    I ran a small ISP on a pair of Linux (Slackware probably) boxes, a Livingston Portmaster, a bank of Hayes modems, and a T1 in the mid-90s. So some of us were Linux admins then.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      Me too. Maintained a small (100 or so) fleet of Slackware Linux desktops for a support org in the early 90's. Rare, but did exist. Was the install 13 1.44mb floppies? Seems to ring a bell. Lots of waiting for the prompt to switch out the floppy. And a more intimate relationship with "dd", "kermit", etc, than I remember ever encountering again. Also, whoever wrote x3270. Thank you!
    - Annatar 9y ago
      That's crazy: Linux isn't rightly usable even now 20+ years later, and you ran it in mid '90's when it could barely boot a shell reliably. And Slackware no less, which meant dumping tape archives everywhere instead of package management. Crazy.

incadenza 9y ago

I’m about a 1.5 Any good resources you could suggest for learning more about what you describe as the relevant areas?

hardwaresofton 9y ago
I want to point out that I'm by no means an expert -- the real experts are the people in the talks that I mentioned, the core contributors to the libraries. I think a good place to start is those talks (and stuff from any container-centric conferences), along with lots and lots of practice using containers. In general, I'm pretty sure if you read up on chrooting, processes on linux, process isolation on linux, LXC, then the relevant standards/tools that underly docker like runc (https://github.com/opencontainers/runc https://github.com/opencontainers/runc), you'll have a pretty deep understanding. Also, for day-to-day use, I honestly think you can do just light research on the above topics and start using docker and know way more than the average developer. As you use it more and more, you'll gain more intuition, and when you bump up against certain issues, you'll probably gain some intuition as to where things are going wrong (though honestly the toolchains are pretty stable now). The goal of a lot of these projects is to be so stable you don't have to worry about it, so I don't feel too guilty about it, in the same way I don't feel too guilty about not ever having cache-line-optimized a program in my life.