5 ms·

> and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last ti

by bwat49 9y ago

> and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last time you used a linux desktop, 2005? On any linux desktop I can think of (MATE, Gnome, KDE) this is a matter of going to Settings | Mouse & Touchpad | check or un-check the natural scrolling box as desired

freehunter 9y ago
Yeah that was not the point at all, but thanks for refuting it anyway.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
wokwokwok 9y ago
Oh pish posh. I had to go into recovery mode last week because an automatic kernel upgrade broke. You're doing that thing where you ignore the argument to refute a tiny irrelevant point of the argument. Thats a rhetoic device for arguing without content, like the whole 'attacking the person not the argument'. Your point is not compelling and does not refute the parent comment.
randallsquared 9y ago
In my experience, having the setting doesn’t make it work. Oh, it works some of the time. In order to make it work MOST of the time, you’ll need to change it in more than one place, at least in X11. And Wayland doesn’t play nice with nvidia, yet. (Not implying who is at fault).
- bwat49 9y ago
  I've never had to change it in more than one place on my xps 13
  - randallsquared 9y ago
    I never got it working all over the system in ubuntu 17.10 (I just resigned myself to testing scroll direction in each app), but in 16.04, there were XKB options, Unity settings, separate Gnome settings (because Gnome ignored the X11-level scrolling!), separate KDE settings (though KDE at least obeyed the base X11 options), and at least an app or two that had their own settings, or used some lib that implemented its own scrolling and also didn't have options to control this. The thing is, though, desktop linux users are just used to this. Your choices boil down to: 1) do a lot of research and setup and then constant maintenance to restore settings that updates casually break, and understand that there will still be exceptions and gaps, or 2) try to stay inside the lines of Gnome, or Unity, or whatever ElementaryOS calls their graphical shell, and ignore the thousands of applications that do not match the look and feel of your chosen environment. I keep going back and trying desktop linux every few years since switching from Gentoo to Mac in 2003, and sometimes I use it exclusively as my personal machine for months at a time, but in the end, frustration always drives me back into Apple's arms. :(
    - bwat49 9y ago
      That doesn't sound like normal behavior to me. In any gnome 3 distro I've ever used, I've only ever had to change it in the gnome control center and it works system wide. Right now I'm running solus mate and changing it in the mate mouse and touchpad settings is system wide and works in both qt and gtk apps... Were you using a touchpad driver other than libinput?
      - randallsquared 9y ago
        I don't know what mouse driver I was using (I don't use a touchpad except on laptops, and all my linux machines have been desktops). I would have assumed it was whatever the default was for Ubuntu over the years. :) (Actually, I do remember that in some versions you had to figure out how to trick the system into thinking you might have a touchpad before it would provide you a place to change the mouse wheel scroll direction, but that seems like a separate failure of preference panels, rather than the root of the issue).
gradstudent 9y ago
I think this depends on the specific flavour of Linux. For instance, Linux + i3wm yields a desktop environment where everything -- including seemingly braindead functions like volume control -- needs to be configured by hand on a command line. Other combinations might be more extensively configured by default but even then it's not hard to find something broken.
batuhanw 9y ago
It kind of works but not stable as mac’s touchpad. You need to spend a lot of time to make 4 finger, 5 finger, zoom, pinch work stable. Also there are endless weird bugs you need to find out why. Had crashing ubuntu, opensuse right after the install. Traveling and working remote, battery power is very important. You cant shutdown or sleep your computer seamlessly. Its just simple thing. It should just work. Yes you can customize it as you wish but I dont want to. I want to spend time for actual coding and having time for myself.
- freehunter 9y ago
  >Yes you can customize it as you wish but I dont want to This was a big moment for me. I was a huge anti-Apple guy, I had built my own laptops and used Android and everything had to be open and hackable. Until one day I just realized it wasn't fun anymore. I would have to stop what I was doing to fix some broken (virtual or real) duct tape that held everything together. I bought my first Mac the month I replaced the CPU, then the motherboard (wrong socket), then the RAM (incompatible with my new mobo), and then was staring down a dying video card in my desktop. I realized I didn't want to fix it. I picked the wrong parts because I didn't care anymore, I didn't care enough to do the proper research. I spent all day fixing computer problems, I hated doing it on my own time too. What I want is a computing appliance that lets me do my job and nothing more. I don't have that yet, I still have to deal with system updates and reboots and filesystem maintenance and all that nonsense with my Macbook, but it's closer. I've been considering a Chromebook but I have had bad luck with Google products in the past. Not a month goes by where I don't re-read Mark O'Connor's "I swapped my MacBook for an iPad+Linode" series and find myself agreeing more and more. http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-for-an-ipad http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-...
Corrado 9y ago
Actually, I just installed the latest lUbuntu and am having this exact problem. The preferences don't have a way to select natural scrolling and I've been "fighting" with it for a couple of days now, changing mysterious values in config files and restarting X. Then when I think I have it figured out a system update happens and it resets back to the original scrolling. This is the real value of macOS. I agree that I liked it better when it was more Unix and less Apple unix-like but it's still better than fighting with your Linux config on a x86 machine.
- exikyut 9y ago
  Do either of these work? - https://askubuntu.com/questions/604002/mouse-wheel-scrolls-in-reversed-direction https://askubuntu.com/questions/604002/mouse-wheel-scrolls-i... - https://askubuntu.com/questions/819662/how-to-invert-touchpad-scrolling-on-ubuntu-16-04 https://askubuntu.com/questions/819662/how-to-invert-touchpa... (They're mutually exclusive; I put the 1st one 1st as undoing that one is a case of rerunning the command replacing the '1' with a '0') If the first one succeeds, try putting the command you used into ~/.Xdefaults and see if it sticks. The 2nd approach puts info into a file anyway. If these fail, what desktop environment are you using?
  - ubernostrum 9y ago
    The problem is not "had to go copy/paste something from the internet to make it work". The problem is "didn't work out of the box". Using Linux as a desktop OS can be a death-by-a-thousand-cuts experience. Sure, whatever problem you run into there's probably someone who's figured out how to solve it and posted instructions online. But if the solutions are known, then the operating system shouldn't have those problems out of the box.
    - exikyut 9y ago
      I agree. In this case I think extra factors must be taken into consideration. First is the "violation of least surprise" principle. Linux as a UNIX is traditionalist to a fault, sometimes obsessively so beyond what is helpful. Scrolling is typically done inverted in X11. So, that means this would need to be a configurable option. From the standpoint you're talking (where the comparison is to macOS), now you're in UI territory, which has typically never been one of Linux's strong points. Someone has go build the UI, but then that'll only be for one given desktop environment, and so now you have duplication of work. Unless every DE does that work, if you're not using one of the DEs that has done the work - well, you get no radio selection group or dropdown or whatever. There are very real reasons why Linux isn't best in class. The politics, infighting and greybeard traditionalism does more to hurt the "it just works" flow other environments have. (Note that I'm not saying "politics", "infighting" and "greybeard traditionalism" are the same thing; they're very different groups and issues, but they combine to form stalemates and inertial cancellations. For example, when traditionalism met systemd, the result was a vicious catfight instead of unified action. Things could have worked out where the community met Red Hat's lobbying with a list of terms and requirements. Nah; everyone just threw their hands up in the air and screamed instead. This is what's broken in Linux. I think KDE had it sorted in 1999 when they pragmatically grabbed the still-closed-source Qt and made a desktop environment out of it. Then GNOME came along and drowned everyone more political overhead than the W3C and Internet working groups combined, and user experience is definitively worse for GTK ever being created.)
jjoonathan 9y ago
If it works.
osrec 9y ago
Exactly. Sure if you're trying to revive some old notebook with a Linux distro you're going to face issues (no different to if you try to install the latest MacOS on their earlier machines). With a modern machine, Linux is a very reliable and comfortable OS that doesn't restrict you in terms of hardware. The only minor criticism I have is that it lacks a high quality spreadsheet application like Excel (but with cloud based solutions catching up, that is becoming a non issue).
- haZard_OS 9y ago
  Does Libre's open source spreadsheet not provide the functionality you need? I took a small HP stream, replaced Windows with POP! OS (from System 76) and the spreadsheet comes as part of the package. As far as I know, it's also easily available with vanilla Ubuntu.
  - osrec 9y ago
    It's 80% there, but for an advanced Excel user, libre office calc feels like Excel from 2005. I'm sure it can do everything advanced users need, but it's slow and clunky at times.
pixel_fcker 9y ago
I’m using Ubuntu 16.04 LTS on a MBP and I cannot get the trackpad to work properly (right-click in the corner). I have to hand-edit confit files, the settings involved are undocumented, and it doesn’t work and I don’t know why. Even regular movement just feels janky compared to macOS.
- Arbalest 9y ago
  MBPs have gotten worse with linux compatibility over the past few years. It usually takes at least a year to even get usable. It's just not worth getting a Mac to run linux. Mac has successfully made sure that macs are only for MacOS. That being said, many laptops which were originally for windows have issues like this too. Desktops are usually fine because they tend to use highly standardised components. Laptops, not so much. This is pretty much entirely because companies are not willing to write open source drivers, and the good integration of stuff in package managers only works if drivers fit the packaging requirements. This usually means open source. I imagine this is mostly a problem of slightly higher cost, but also embarrassment of the jankiness of code. For mass produced systems with volume in mind, where the target consumer barely cares about reputation, it just isn't a priority. In other words, you have to go for something expensive while also not being an OEM who opposes openness. tl;dr you need to do your research before you buy. Linux needs cooperation from all parties, you can't expect compatibility with everything.
  - Dunedan 9y ago
    > MBPs have gotten worse with linux compatibility over the past few years. It usually takes at least a year to even get usable. I don't see a trend there. Some things always worked, while others didn't. Same for the current MBP's. It's the usual problem for hardware where the vendor doesn't provide Linux drivers: you need somebody to write these drivers in their spare time and only a few people are willing to do so. I maintain an overview of the Linux compatibility of the MBP's >=2016 (https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux/ https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux/) and it's absolutely astonishing what a few people can achieve, even without documentation of the hardware. Given, the hardware support isn't that good yet in Linux, but if there would be 10 instead of 2-3 people working in their spare time on the drivers, first class support would be there pretty soon. So if you care about Linux compatibility of Macs: Get your hands dirty and do something about it! > It's just not worth getting a Mac to run linux. For me it's worth it, because it feels like somebody thought really hard about getting things right, which results in really, really nice hardware (except for the latest keyboards and the Touch Bar of course).
rayiner 9y ago
Used Linux on the desktop through college before switching to a Mac. It’s still not great. Maybe worse now, considering that now you’ve got X and Wayland to choose from and GNOME has somehow alienated everyone and fragmented. How do you set things up so you can use Remote Desktop/VNC into a GNOME desktop using Wayland?
- opencl 9y ago
  GNOME has a built in Wayland-compatible VNC server. Install the gnome-remote-desktop package and open the Settings app and enable Screen Sharing.

by bwat49 9y ago

freehunter 9y ago

Yeah that was not the point at all, but thanks for refuting it anyway.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

wokwokwok 9y ago

Oh pish posh. I had to go into recovery mode last week because an automatic kernel upgrade broke. You're doing that thing where you ignore the argument to refute a tiny irrelevant point of the argument. Thats a rhetoic device for arguing without content, like the whole 'attacking the person not the argument'. Your point is not compelling and does not refute the parent comment.

randallsquared 9y ago

In my experience, having the setting doesn’t make it work. Oh, it works some of the time. In order to make it work MOST of the time, you’ll need to change it in more than one place, at least in X11. And Wayland doesn’t play nice with nvidia, yet. (Not implying who is at fault).

bwat49 9y ago
I've never had to change it in more than one place on my xps 13
- randallsquared 9y ago
  I never got it working all over the system in ubuntu 17.10 (I just resigned myself to testing scroll direction in each app), but in 16.04, there were XKB options, Unity settings, separate Gnome settings (because Gnome ignored the X11-level scrolling!), separate KDE settings (though KDE at least obeyed the base X11 options), and at least an app or two that had their own settings, or used some lib that implemented its own scrolling and also didn't have options to control this. The thing is, though, desktop linux users are just used to this. Your choices boil down to: 1) do a lot of research and setup and then constant maintenance to restore settings that updates casually break, and understand that there will still be exceptions and gaps, or 2) try to stay inside the lines of Gnome, or Unity, or whatever ElementaryOS calls their graphical shell, and ignore the thousands of applications that do not match the look and feel of your chosen environment. I keep going back and trying desktop linux every few years since switching from Gentoo to Mac in 2003, and sometimes I use it exclusively as my personal machine for months at a time, but in the end, frustration always drives me back into Apple's arms. :(
  - bwat49 9y ago
    That doesn't sound like normal behavior to me. In any gnome 3 distro I've ever used, I've only ever had to change it in the gnome control center and it works system wide. Right now I'm running solus mate and changing it in the mate mouse and touchpad settings is system wide and works in both qt and gtk apps... Were you using a touchpad driver other than libinput?
    - randallsquared 9y ago
      I don't know what mouse driver I was using (I don't use a touchpad except on laptops, and all my linux machines have been desktops). I would have assumed it was whatever the default was for Ubuntu over the years. :) (Actually, I do remember that in some versions you had to figure out how to trick the system into thinking you might have a touchpad before it would provide you a place to change the mouse wheel scroll direction, but that seems like a separate failure of preference panels, rather than the root of the issue).

gradstudent 9y ago

I think this depends on the specific flavour of Linux. For instance, Linux + i3wm yields a desktop environment where everything -- including seemingly braindead functions like volume control -- needs to be configured by hand on a command line. Other combinations might be more extensively configured by default but even then it's not hard to find something broken.

batuhanw 9y ago

It kind of works but not stable as mac’s touchpad. You need to spend a lot of time to make 4 finger, 5 finger, zoom, pinch work stable. Also there are endless weird bugs you need to find out why. Had crashing ubuntu, opensuse right after the install. Traveling and working remote, battery power is very important. You cant shutdown or sleep your computer seamlessly. Its just simple thing. It should just work. Yes you can customize it as you wish but I dont want to. I want to spend time for actual coding and having time for myself.

freehunter 9y ago
>Yes you can customize it as you wish but I dont want to This was a big moment for me. I was a huge anti-Apple guy, I had built my own laptops and used Android and everything had to be open and hackable. Until one day I just realized it wasn't fun anymore. I would have to stop what I was doing to fix some broken (virtual or real) duct tape that held everything together. I bought my first Mac the month I replaced the CPU, then the motherboard (wrong socket), then the RAM (incompatible with my new mobo), and then was staring down a dying video card in my desktop. I realized I didn't want to fix it. I picked the wrong parts because I didn't care anymore, I didn't care enough to do the proper research. I spent all day fixing computer problems, I hated doing it on my own time too. What I want is a computing appliance that lets me do my job and nothing more. I don't have that yet, I still have to deal with system updates and reboots and filesystem maintenance and all that nonsense with my Macbook, but it's closer. I've been considering a Chromebook but I have had bad luck with Google products in the past. Not a month goes by where I don't re-read Mark O'Connor's "I swapped my MacBook for an iPad+Linode" series and find myself agreeing more and more. http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-for-an-ipad http://yieldthought.com/post/12239282034/swapped-my-macbook-...

Corrado 9y ago

Actually, I just installed the latest lUbuntu and am having this exact problem. The preferences don't have a way to select natural scrolling and I've been "fighting" with it for a couple of days now, changing mysterious values in config files and restarting X. Then when I think I have it figured out a system update happens and it resets back to the original scrolling. This is the real value of macOS. I agree that I liked it better when it was more Unix and less Apple unix-like but it's still better than fighting with your Linux config on a x86 machine.

exikyut 9y ago
Do either of these work? - https://askubuntu.com/questions/604002/mouse-wheel-scrolls-in-reversed-direction https://askubuntu.com/questions/604002/mouse-wheel-scrolls-i... - https://askubuntu.com/questions/819662/how-to-invert-touchpad-scrolling-on-ubuntu-16-04 https://askubuntu.com/questions/819662/how-to-invert-touchpa... (They're mutually exclusive; I put the 1st one 1st as undoing that one is a case of rerunning the command replacing the '1' with a '0') If the first one succeeds, try putting the command you used into ~/.Xdefaults and see if it sticks. The 2nd approach puts info into a file anyway. If these fail, what desktop environment are you using?
- ubernostrum 9y ago
  The problem is not "had to go copy/paste something from the internet to make it work". The problem is "didn't work out of the box". Using Linux as a desktop OS can be a death-by-a-thousand-cuts experience. Sure, whatever problem you run into there's probably someone who's figured out how to solve it and posted instructions online. But if the solutions are known, then the operating system shouldn't have those problems out of the box.
  - exikyut 9y ago
    I agree. In this case I think extra factors must be taken into consideration. First is the "violation of least surprise" principle. Linux as a UNIX is traditionalist to a fault, sometimes obsessively so beyond what is helpful. Scrolling is typically done inverted in X11. So, that means this would need to be a configurable option. From the standpoint you're talking (where the comparison is to macOS), now you're in UI territory, which has typically never been one of Linux's strong points. Someone has go build the UI, but then that'll only be for one given desktop environment, and so now you have duplication of work. Unless every DE does that work, if you're not using one of the DEs that has done the work - well, you get no radio selection group or dropdown or whatever. There are very real reasons why Linux isn't best in class. The politics, infighting and greybeard traditionalism does more to hurt the "it just works" flow other environments have. (Note that I'm not saying "politics", "infighting" and "greybeard traditionalism" are the same thing; they're very different groups and issues, but they combine to form stalemates and inertial cancellations. For example, when traditionalism met systemd, the result was a vicious catfight instead of unified action. Things could have worked out where the community met Red Hat's lobbying with a list of terms and requirements. Nah; everyone just threw their hands up in the air and screamed instead. This is what's broken in Linux. I think KDE had it sorted in 1999 when they pragmatically grabbed the still-closed-source Qt and made a desktop environment out of it. Then GNOME came along and drowned everyone more political overhead than the W3C and Internet working groups combined, and user experience is definitively worse for GTK ever being created.)

jjoonathan 9y ago

If it works.

osrec 9y ago

Exactly. Sure if you're trying to revive some old notebook with a Linux distro you're going to face issues (no different to if you try to install the latest MacOS on their earlier machines). With a modern machine, Linux is a very reliable and comfortable OS that doesn't restrict you in terms of hardware. The only minor criticism I have is that it lacks a high quality spreadsheet application like Excel (but with cloud based solutions catching up, that is becoming a non issue).

haZard_OS 9y ago
Does Libre's open source spreadsheet not provide the functionality you need? I took a small HP stream, replaced Windows with POP! OS (from System 76) and the spreadsheet comes as part of the package. As far as I know, it's also easily available with vanilla Ubuntu.
- osrec 9y ago
  It's 80% there, but for an advanced Excel user, libre office calc feels like Excel from 2005. I'm sure it can do everything advanced users need, but it's slow and clunky at times.

pixel_fcker 9y ago

I’m using Ubuntu 16.04 LTS on a MBP and I cannot get the trackpad to work properly (right-click in the corner). I have to hand-edit confit files, the settings involved are undocumented, and it doesn’t work and I don’t know why. Even regular movement just feels janky compared to macOS.

Arbalest 9y ago
MBPs have gotten worse with linux compatibility over the past few years. It usually takes at least a year to even get usable. It's just not worth getting a Mac to run linux. Mac has successfully made sure that macs are only for MacOS. That being said, many laptops which were originally for windows have issues like this too. Desktops are usually fine because they tend to use highly standardised components. Laptops, not so much. This is pretty much entirely because companies are not willing to write open source drivers, and the good integration of stuff in package managers only works if drivers fit the packaging requirements. This usually means open source. I imagine this is mostly a problem of slightly higher cost, but also embarrassment of the jankiness of code. For mass produced systems with volume in mind, where the target consumer barely cares about reputation, it just isn't a priority. In other words, you have to go for something expensive while also not being an OEM who opposes openness. tl;dr you need to do your research before you buy. Linux needs cooperation from all parties, you can't expect compatibility with everything.
- Dunedan 9y ago
  > MBPs have gotten worse with linux compatibility over the past few years. It usually takes at least a year to even get usable. I don't see a trend there. Some things always worked, while others didn't. Same for the current MBP's. It's the usual problem for hardware where the vendor doesn't provide Linux drivers: you need somebody to write these drivers in their spare time and only a few people are willing to do so. I maintain an overview of the Linux compatibility of the MBP's >=2016 (https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux/ https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux/) and it's absolutely astonishing what a few people can achieve, even without documentation of the hardware. Given, the hardware support isn't that good yet in Linux, but if there would be 10 instead of 2-3 people working in their spare time on the drivers, first class support would be there pretty soon. So if you care about Linux compatibility of Macs: Get your hands dirty and do something about it! > It's just not worth getting a Mac to run linux. For me it's worth it, because it feels like somebody thought really hard about getting things right, which results in really, really nice hardware (except for the latest keyboards and the Touch Bar of course).

rayiner 9y ago

Used Linux on the desktop through college before switching to a Mac. It’s still not great. Maybe worse now, considering that now you’ve got X and Wayland to choose from and GNOME has somehow alienated everyone and fragmented. How do you set things up so you can use Remote Desktop/VNC into a GNOME desktop using Wayland?

opencl 9y ago
GNOME has a built in Wayland-compatible VNC server. Install the gnome-remote-desktop package and open the Settings app and enable Screen Sharing.