9 ms·

I personally hate close fences with no rooms for customization, and many computer scientists are on the same wavelength. Windows is an awful choice for softwar

I personally hate close fences with no rooms for customization, and many computer scientists are on the same wavelength. Windows is an awful choice for software development, a job that usually requires a lot of interaction with Unix servers. Microsoft's recent crush for Linux and open source can't fix many years of closed standards, closed protocols, and Embrace-Extend-Exterminate evil culture. And MacOS, even though it's still loosely based on a Unix *BSD flavor, still falls into the "closed fence" category - brew is nice but can't be compared with the maturity of the package managers on any Linux distro, you can't just recompile or update the kernel on the fly to get support for a new device, and OS internals are purposely obscure to developers. Paying all that money for such a closed box, if you're anything more than an average users, is simply a waste of money. Linux distros are by far the best environment for a computer scientists - made by developers, for developers - but there's no major vendor that sells machines with Linux pre-installed and supported, and getting Linux installed on the newest Surface or Dell toy is often a challenge that gets many frustrated. There's definitely a huge gap in the market, and as a computer scientist I feel that none of the major vendors cares to provide me with a solid machine to do my work.

ekianjo 9y ago
How about the Dell XPS line with official Ubuntu support?
walshemj 9y ago
I don't really get that you can run X windows to work on your end server and you can set up local tools to work direct MySqlWorkBench for example.
khedoros1 9y ago
> Linux distros are by far the best environment for a computer scientists - made by developers, for developers - but there's no major vendor that sells machines with Linux pre-installed and supported, and getting Linux installed on the newest Surface or Dell toy is often a challenge that gets many frustrated. Is there any reason why something like the various Dell machines preloaded with Ubuntu or RHEL wouldn't count?
- nqzero 9y ago
  for laptops, dell seems to love 16:9 aspect ratio, which makes them inappropriate for development. for workstations, every dell i've seen uses custom cases that prevent upgrading the motherboard with an OTS component
  - enraged_camel 9y ago
    >>for laptops, dell seems to love 16:9 aspect ratio, which makes them inappropriate for development. Inappropriate how, exactly?
    - rangibaby 9y ago
      They are too short for reading terminals or documents. Macs are 16:10 which is a little bit better
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      How about "suboptimal"? 16:9 is OK for games and great for movies, and 1080p is at least wide enough that it can be reasonable to stick 2 terminals side-by-side, but it would be even better if it was a little taller.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    I hate the 16:9 ratio and everyone uses it. It's probably cheaper since that's the same ratio as full HD which is used in many TV panels. A 1920x1200 monitor is much better than a 1920:1080 for me for coding.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Those are certainly downsides, and that's fair enough. The last Dell tower that I used was from about 2008 (Precision T-something). I remember adding a hard drive and RAM to it without trouble, but I can't talk about their non-business line, or larger modifications like replacing an expansion card or power supply.
therealmarv 9y ago
I really dislike the argument for recompiling a whole Kernel to getting something to run is a good thing... I would even say it's very good that Windows and Mac don't need a whole Kernel recompilation for devices... just because Linux has this design for their hardware stack does not make it a good choice. Ever wanted to get custom hardware drivers working in Linux... it's insane and complicated you need to recompile your Kernel for that! Only good thing in Linux is that many hardware drivers are very good or at least good enough and plenty nowadays. Nothing against Linux... but it's not always a holy grail of architecture!
- angelsl 9y ago
  You don't. Use a kernel module.
  - therealmarv 9y ago
    That does not always work. Especially when you want to replace some existing drivers. I know...
- radarsat1 9y ago
  > I really dislike the argument for recompiling a whole Kernel to getting something to run is a good thing... I haven't had to do that in years. On the other hand, knowing that I could gives me peace of mind.
  - therealmarv 9y ago
    Me neither. Just wanted to say that other choices have also benefits. It's not "Linux is always superior" in every regard.
metafunctor 9y ago
I, too, used to love tinkering with Linux. I would compile my own kernels, hack drivers and fix bugs to make it run better on the hardware I chose to buy. I wanted everything to be just so. Then, I realized that I have more money than time. I can choose Apple hardware, and run OS X (now macOS), trouble free. The only time I patched my Linux kernel was when some piece of hardware didn't work. Now, I simply choose hardware that works with my mac. It's not that much more expensive, usually. On the software side, my old workflow with terminals, SSH, and browsers is pretty much unchanged. The only thing I really liked but Apple dropped (and I hate them for it) was virtual desktops. For that, I use TotalSpaces2. That said, I think you can still get a Dell XPS with Linux preinstalled, no?
- zarkov99 9y ago
  Yes. And it just works. Gnome is not at MacOS levels of polishing but you get a proper dev machine instead of a pretty SSH terminal into your real dev machine.
  - mrgordon 9y ago
    I’ve seen way too many Dell lemons to believe its as simple as “it just works” with Linux. Also, as someone who used to live next door to the creator of GNOME, saying it isn’t as polished as MacOS is quite an understatement.
    - curioussavage 9y ago
      Elementary OS is very polished.
  - dkonofalski 9y ago
    What are you talking about? MacOS is a certified Unix variant and it has everything you need to do local dev on it.
    - zarkov99 9y ago
      For server side software the deployment environment is overwhelmingly Linux making Linux also the most straightforward choice for the development environment. Its not a slight on MacOS, its tooling might be just as wonderful as the Linux one for deploying on MacOS.
freehunter 9y ago
Here's the problem with saying "this is better for computer scientists": It's the same argument every time someone says "the Macbook Pro is not a professional device". Not every computer scientist has the same needs. There are a lot of CS folks who will never need to recompile a kernel or even get into the OS internals. For those people, having to do that is a major downside to any computer. So the obvious choice is a computer where that's never necessary. Linux is a great OS. I spend all day SSH'd into it. From a Mac. Because my workstation needs to work, and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction. I'm not a C programmer, so keep me as far from the kernel as you can. The best environment for a computer scientist is the one that lets them get their work done in the most comfortable fashion. And for most of us, that's Linux on the server and something else on our workstations.
- bwat49 9y ago
  > and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last time you used a linux desktop, 2005? On any linux desktop I can think of (MATE, Gnome, KDE) this is a matter of going to Settings | Mouse & Touchpad | check or un-check the natural scrolling box as desired
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Yeah that was not the point at all, but thanks for refuting it anyway.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - wokwokwok 9y ago
    Oh pish posh. I had to go into recovery mode last week because an automatic kernel upgrade broke. You're doing that thing where you ignore the argument to refute a tiny irrelevant point of the argument. Thats a rhetoic device for arguing without content, like the whole 'attacking the person not the argument'. Your point is not compelling and does not refute the parent comment.
scarface74 9y ago
MacOS is "real Unix". It's been certified as Unix since they moved to Intel by the Open Group.
zitterbewegung 9y ago
If Linux had proper support for suspend on My MacBook Pro I would use it. The problem with Linux is their laptop support for drivers such as the touchpad and proper ACPi support . Windows and MacOS have this handled but Linux does not unless you buy dell or Lenovo. Also, macs have a lower chance of replacement since they have more reliable parts .
- jeena 9y ago
  MacOS doesn't have it unless you buy a Mac ;)
jeremiep 9y ago
I still prefer the "closed fence" that is macOS over the complete mess that is desktop on linux. macOS was really really liberating after years of frustrations with all of gnome, kde and xfce. Then was x11 vs mir vs wayland. Desktop on linux is pretty much still a toy when compared to desktop on macos. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the whole developer's environment thing. "Made by developers, for developers" and "all that money for such a closed box" sound a lot more like wishful idealism than actual "best tool for the job" pragmatism. I also used to think linux was the best desktop, and did so for a long time, because of "by developers for developers, open-source" and other righteous sounding things. But believing you're using the best tools and actually doing so are two different things; I wasn't even living in Emacs or aware of how superior the VIM language is back then, so much for using the best tools ;) Its easy to fool yourself into thinking you have the best tools, and its near impossible to tell you actually do.
- promeus 9y ago
  I beg to differ: Take a look at current state of MacOS. There is nothing wrong in idea of quality control with emphasis on security, but actual os implementation lacks it. Only Apple can survive root fiasco from this year. I think that a need of commercial desktop linux distribution is present. I remember commercial SUSE 11. It was a good desktop, but targeted in a wrong direction, if someone is brave enough to target creative market with all good things that Apple is famous for, it will be more than a hit. It will be glorious. Microsoft is going in cloud/ai direction. Apple is mobile only. Desktop computing will not die so easily. Professionals need desktop, bigger screen, and reliable and expandable hardware architecture.
  - jeremiep 9y ago
    Where does it say Apple is mobile only? Last I checked getting a 4K monitor to work under linux was a very involved series of configurations. My current MacBook has a retina display and effortlessly supports a 4K monitor as secondary screen. Retina alone is a game changer. Combined with better text anti-aliasing it makes macOS by far the most pleasing/productive experience for development I've ever used (disclaimer: I have over a decade of experience in both Windows/Linux desktops.) I stopped believing in desktop on linux a few years ago (and I really wanted it to work!) Things are getting more fragmented instead of unified; that adds lots of extra work for users and app developers, which result in a frustrating experience and vastly different UIs depending on versions/toolkits used. I don't think a commercial desktop will change any of that, even a fully dedicated and financed team will take years to barely get on-par with the desktop on macOS.
FractalLP 9y ago
Check out system76 and Dell's Linux offerings. Both great.
zodiac 9y ago
> Linux distros are by far the best environment for a computer scientists I feel like this is a wide enough class that you shouldn't speak for all of us. I spent years on Ubuntu and a bit in centos and then macOS and prefer the macOS UI over both gnome and awesomeWM and brew over apt and yum. For reference I use laptops and spend most of my time on the web, in git, various programming languages, and of course writing latex.
scraft 9y ago
Just become a professional games developer, then you are forced to use Windows (for example to develop for Xbox One). The nice thing is: you can then say, 100%, Windows is the right tool for the job, and you can ignore the people claiming Linux or MacOS are better. I have worked at three games development studios, some of the biggest in Europe and every single developer machine runs Windows.
martin1975 9y ago
Can you spell/smell Microsoft Linux? Cause I can. :) Apple is as good as dead if they actually carry this out.
- myrandomcomment 9y ago
  This will have zero impact. Most consumers will not care at all. For me, if I need to build something for x86, ssh to a build server works fine. Heck I have an Intel Mac now and do not build locally. Submit to Jenkins and let the build system sort it for me in parallel. I moved to a MacBook because locally the weight / size matters more than anything else. Hacker news is not the tigers Apple market.

ekianjo 9y ago

How about the Dell XPS line with official Ubuntu support?

walshemj 9y ago

I don't really get that you can run X windows to work on your end server and you can set up local tools to work direct MySqlWorkBench for example.

khedoros1 9y ago

> Linux distros are by far the best environment for a computer scientists - made by developers, for developers - but there's no major vendor that sells machines with Linux pre-installed and supported, and getting Linux installed on the newest Surface or Dell toy is often a challenge that gets many frustrated. Is there any reason why something like the various Dell machines preloaded with Ubuntu or RHEL wouldn't count?

nqzero 9y ago
for laptops, dell seems to love 16:9 aspect ratio, which makes them inappropriate for development. for workstations, every dell i've seen uses custom cases that prevent upgrading the motherboard with an OTS component
- enraged_camel 9y ago
  >>for laptops, dell seems to love 16:9 aspect ratio, which makes them inappropriate for development. Inappropriate how, exactly?
  - rangibaby 9y ago
    They are too short for reading terminals or documents. Macs are 16:10 which is a little bit better
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    How about "suboptimal"? 16:9 is OK for games and great for movies, and 1080p is at least wide enough that it can be reasonable to stick 2 terminals side-by-side, but it would be even better if it was a little taller.
- Clubber 9y ago
  I hate the 16:9 ratio and everyone uses it. It's probably cheaper since that's the same ratio as full HD which is used in many TV panels. A 1920x1200 monitor is much better than a 1920:1080 for me for coding.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  Those are certainly downsides, and that's fair enough. The last Dell tower that I used was from about 2008 (Precision T-something). I remember adding a hard drive and RAM to it without trouble, but I can't talk about their non-business line, or larger modifications like replacing an expansion card or power supply.

therealmarv 9y ago

I really dislike the argument for recompiling a whole Kernel to getting something to run is a good thing... I would even say it's very good that Windows and Mac don't need a whole Kernel recompilation for devices... just because Linux has this design for their hardware stack does not make it a good choice. Ever wanted to get custom hardware drivers working in Linux... it's insane and complicated you need to recompile your Kernel for that! Only good thing in Linux is that many hardware drivers are very good or at least good enough and plenty nowadays. Nothing against Linux... but it's not always a holy grail of architecture!

angelsl 9y ago
You don't. Use a kernel module.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  That does not always work. Especially when you want to replace some existing drivers. I know...
radarsat1 9y ago
> I really dislike the argument for recompiling a whole Kernel to getting something to run is a good thing... I haven't had to do that in years. On the other hand, knowing that I could gives me peace of mind.
- therealmarv 9y ago
  Me neither. Just wanted to say that other choices have also benefits. It's not "Linux is always superior" in every regard.

metafunctor 9y ago

I, too, used to love tinkering with Linux. I would compile my own kernels, hack drivers and fix bugs to make it run better on the hardware I chose to buy. I wanted everything to be just so. Then, I realized that I have more money than time. I can choose Apple hardware, and run OS X (now macOS), trouble free. The only time I patched my Linux kernel was when some piece of hardware didn't work. Now, I simply choose hardware that works with my mac. It's not that much more expensive, usually. On the software side, my old workflow with terminals, SSH, and browsers is pretty much unchanged. The only thing I really liked but Apple dropped (and I hate them for it) was virtual desktops. For that, I use TotalSpaces2. That said, I think you can still get a Dell XPS with Linux preinstalled, no?

zarkov99 9y ago
Yes. And it just works. Gnome is not at MacOS levels of polishing but you get a proper dev machine instead of a pretty SSH terminal into your real dev machine.
- mrgordon 9y ago
  I’ve seen way too many Dell lemons to believe its as simple as “it just works” with Linux. Also, as someone who used to live next door to the creator of GNOME, saying it isn’t as polished as MacOS is quite an understatement.
  - curioussavage 9y ago
    Elementary OS is very polished.
- dkonofalski 9y ago
  What are you talking about? MacOS is a certified Unix variant and it has everything you need to do local dev on it.
  - zarkov99 9y ago
    For server side software the deployment environment is overwhelmingly Linux making Linux also the most straightforward choice for the development environment. Its not a slight on MacOS, its tooling might be just as wonderful as the Linux one for deploying on MacOS.

freehunter 9y ago

Here's the problem with saying "this is better for computer scientists": It's the same argument every time someone says "the Macbook Pro is not a professional device". Not every computer scientist has the same needs. There are a lot of CS folks who will never need to recompile a kernel or even get into the OS internals. For those people, having to do that is a major downside to any computer. So the obvious choice is a computer where that's never necessary. Linux is a great OS. I spend all day SSH'd into it. From a Mac. Because my workstation needs to work, and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction. I'm not a C programmer, so keep me as far from the kernel as you can. The best environment for a computer scientist is the one that lets them get their work done in the most comfortable fashion. And for most of us, that's Linux on the server and something else on our workstations.

bwat49 9y ago
> and it's not going to work if I'm copying and pasting kernel code from Stack Overflow to get my trackpad to scroll the correct direction When was the last time you used a linux desktop, 2005? On any linux desktop I can think of (MATE, Gnome, KDE) this is a matter of going to Settings | Mouse & Touchpad | check or un-check the natural scrolling box as desired
- freehunter 9y ago
  Yeah that was not the point at all, but thanks for refuting it anyway.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- wokwokwok 9y ago
  Oh pish posh. I had to go into recovery mode last week because an automatic kernel upgrade broke. You're doing that thing where you ignore the argument to refute a tiny irrelevant point of the argument. Thats a rhetoic device for arguing without content, like the whole 'attacking the person not the argument'. Your point is not compelling and does not refute the parent comment.

scarface74 9y ago

MacOS is "real Unix". It's been certified as Unix since they moved to Intel by the Open Group.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

If Linux had proper support for suspend on My MacBook Pro I would use it. The problem with Linux is their laptop support for drivers such as the touchpad and proper ACPi support . Windows and MacOS have this handled but Linux does not unless you buy dell or Lenovo. Also, macs have a lower chance of replacement since they have more reliable parts .

jeena 9y ago
MacOS doesn't have it unless you buy a Mac ;)

jeremiep 9y ago

I still prefer the "closed fence" that is macOS over the complete mess that is desktop on linux. macOS was really really liberating after years of frustrations with all of gnome, kde and xfce. Then was x11 vs mir vs wayland. Desktop on linux is pretty much still a toy when compared to desktop on macos. There seem to be a lot of misconceptions about the whole developer's environment thing. "Made by developers, for developers" and "all that money for such a closed box" sound a lot more like wishful idealism than actual "best tool for the job" pragmatism. I also used to think linux was the best desktop, and did so for a long time, because of "by developers for developers, open-source" and other righteous sounding things. But believing you're using the best tools and actually doing so are two different things; I wasn't even living in Emacs or aware of how superior the VIM language is back then, so much for using the best tools ;) Its easy to fool yourself into thinking you have the best tools, and its near impossible to tell you actually do.

promeus 9y ago
I beg to differ: Take a look at current state of MacOS. There is nothing wrong in idea of quality control with emphasis on security, but actual os implementation lacks it. Only Apple can survive root fiasco from this year. I think that a need of commercial desktop linux distribution is present. I remember commercial SUSE 11. It was a good desktop, but targeted in a wrong direction, if someone is brave enough to target creative market with all good things that Apple is famous for, it will be more than a hit. It will be glorious. Microsoft is going in cloud/ai direction. Apple is mobile only. Desktop computing will not die so easily. Professionals need desktop, bigger screen, and reliable and expandable hardware architecture.
- jeremiep 9y ago
  Where does it say Apple is mobile only? Last I checked getting a 4K monitor to work under linux was a very involved series of configurations. My current MacBook has a retina display and effortlessly supports a 4K monitor as secondary screen. Retina alone is a game changer. Combined with better text anti-aliasing it makes macOS by far the most pleasing/productive experience for development I've ever used (disclaimer: I have over a decade of experience in both Windows/Linux desktops.) I stopped believing in desktop on linux a few years ago (and I really wanted it to work!) Things are getting more fragmented instead of unified; that adds lots of extra work for users and app developers, which result in a frustrating experience and vastly different UIs depending on versions/toolkits used. I don't think a commercial desktop will change any of that, even a fully dedicated and financed team will take years to barely get on-par with the desktop on macOS.

FractalLP 9y ago

Check out system76 and Dell's Linux offerings. Both great.

zodiac 9y ago

> Linux distros are by far the best environment for a computer scientists I feel like this is a wide enough class that you shouldn't speak for all of us. I spent years on Ubuntu and a bit in centos and then macOS and prefer the macOS UI over both gnome and awesomeWM and brew over apt and yum. For reference I use laptops and spend most of my time on the web, in git, various programming languages, and of course writing latex.

scraft 9y ago

Just become a professional games developer, then you are forced to use Windows (for example to develop for Xbox One). The nice thing is: you can then say, 100%, Windows is the right tool for the job, and you can ignore the people claiming Linux or MacOS are better. I have worked at three games development studios, some of the biggest in Europe and every single developer machine runs Windows.

martin1975 9y ago

Can you spell/smell Microsoft Linux? Cause I can. :) Apple is as good as dead if they actually carry this out.

myrandomcomment 9y ago
This will have zero impact. Most consumers will not care at all. For me, if I need to build something for x86, ssh to a build server works fine. Heck I have an Intel Mac now and do not build locally. Submit to Jenkins and let the build system sort it for me in parallel. I moved to a MacBook because locally the weight / size matters more than anything else. Hacker news is not the tigers Apple market.