5 ms·

I fail to see how that makes it any better.

notahacker 9y ago
A lottery is marketed as a game in which one spends a small sum of money in the hope of winning a large sum, not as a place to park ones savings in the expectation of increasing their value over time. And still likely offers a less negative ROI than unregulated securities offerings to retail investors.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  You are welcome to restrain yourself from your own ignorance, but I don't see why you should have the right to do so on others that don't enjoy that bondage. Punish those you disagree with by letting them hang by their own rope, or realize later on that it is you today who is being hang by your own.
  - Trundle 9y ago
    You can't "punish people by letting them hang their own rope" when they don't actually get hung, because they're still around afterwards but now a burden. They now have to rely (more) on the social safety net, or turn to crime, or just sit around all poor and broken being unpleasant to look at. A society that has decided to take on, at least partially, the burden of individual failure is incentivised to try to prevent it. If you were to propose some sort of "unaccredited investors get to invest in risky markets if they agree to be put on a boat and cast out to sea if they fail" then I could see myself accepting that.
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      We plunge deeper into the rabbit hole. If only a citizen could decide to renounce taxes for services the government provides but that he doesn't use! We are now all forced to contribute in name of helping the needy, but then we ask in return that they stay needy, and that attempts to rise above their station will be met with the reminder that it is the best for them and for everyone to remain ignorant of such matters. How caritative, how empathic and how benevolent are those that get their nobility validated with their bank account statement.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    So what happens when irresponsible investors plunge the country back into another great depression? How are you going to prevent the mistakes of others from causing a financial collapse which causes me to get laid off, through no fault of my own?
    - conanbatt 9y ago
      You overestimate the cost of speculative gambles, but let me ask a the opposite: if the regulation costs you your job and an economic recession who is going to compensate you for it? Because as far as i know the government has never given a check to compensate for its mistakes.
      - patentatt 9y ago
        So much wrong with everything you said. First, the cost of speculative gambles is economic collapse. Such gambles were a root cause of the Great Depression. Second, how exactly is regulating investment going to cost anybody their job? Think it through. Maintaining the current state of regulation will have an effect now because ... ? It doesn’t make sense. Third, and this is by far the dumbest thing you said, of course the big bad gummint picks up the tab when people lose their jobs, it’s called unemployment! How fortunate you are to live with all of this evil regulation that you can be coddled into thinking that you know better than the generations that came before and put in place these institutions and norms. Libertarianism is a first world disease of entitlement that is only enabled by the stability and prosperity that effective government creates. It’d be so ironic so as to be funny if it weren’t so sad.
        conanbatt 9y ago
        > First, the cost of speculative gambles is economic collapse. Such gambles were a root cause of the Great Depression A man has earnt a nobel prize of economics by detailing how the federal reserve's money supply policy was the most noticeable trigger of the 1930's economic collapse. But even if you disagreed with that, speculation is definitely not what caused the great depression. - The popular fear of engrossing and forestalling [types of speculative activity outlawed in England] may be compared to the popular terrors and suspicions of witchcraft. The unfortunate wretches accused of this latter crime were not more innocent of the misfortunes imputed to them than those who have been accused of the former - > Second, how exactly is regulating investment going to cost anybody their job? Think it through By restricting investment it lowers wage growth and employment. The rate of investment is maybe the best predictor of productivity increases and wage growth. > Third, and this is by far the dumbest thing you said, of course the big bad gummint picks up the tab when people lose their jobs, it’s called unemployment! Unemployment benefits are paid by the population, not by the government. Government is unable to compensate for its mistakes, because government owns nothing at all. Taxes are the ultimate ninja loan. > How fortunate you are to live with all of this evil regulation that you can be coddled into thinking that you know better than the generations that came before and put in place these institutions and norms. What is unfortunate is to disagree with it and still being obligated to follow it. If you find those kind of regulations upon the action of individuals beneficial, then the only thing you have to do is allow the Libertarians you so despise not follow them, and harm themselves. AFter that you will be able to enjoy your cautious riches and laugh at them, while not incurring any loss and having relative advantages.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> I fail to see how that makes it any better Lotteries are not run, nor marketed, as investments. Some people mistakenly think of them as such. They predictably lose money. Because of private lotteries' histories with fraud, almost every modern nation has the state run (or heavily regulate) lotteries.
- conanbatt 9y ago
  So a company has to claim it loses money to be absolved of any moral burden? IF only the SEC accepted that.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > So a company has to claim it loses money to be absolved of any moral burden? State and federal governments aren't private companies.
    - lr4444lr 9y ago
      I think you're missing his point. Those very entities have agencies which are both "protecting" the public by imposing regulations that prevent them from expenditures with negative expected value, and at the same time peddle them. Imagine if there were a state-run cigarette producing public benefit corporations alongside public health departments. You'd have two agencies, one cultivating and the other discouraging the same toxic habit at great public expense. We already have this with various OTB/gaming commissions and gambling addiction services. It's an insane conflict of interest to waste tax dollars on.
      - nostrademons 9y ago
        Also corn subsidies vs. obesity-related healthcare; free roads & parking vs. smog controls; loose monetary policy vs. financial bailouts; having everyone prepare their own tax returns (as opposed to the IRS just sending out a bill along with their calculations) vs. spending money prosecuting tax evaders; and CIA-financed terrorists using our own weapons against our military. When you think about it, most of humanity's problems come from "fixes" put forth by some other branch of humanity. Humans are not particularly logical or inclined to see the big picture; they are very good at feeling a pain point acutely and slapping a band aid over it. Over time, this becomes rather absurd, but in the meantime the complexity lets societies that act like this grow bigger populations and amass bigger armies, and so that's all you see today. Most historical peoples were quite happy to live as hunter gatherers, except that larger & more miserable societies had a knack for enslaving & eradicating them.

A lottery is marketed as a game in which one spends a small sum of money in the hope of winning a large sum, not as a place to park ones savings in the expectation of increasing their value over time. And still likely offers a less negative ROI than unregulated securities offerings to retail investors.

conanbatt 9y ago
You are welcome to restrain yourself from your own ignorance, but I don't see why you should have the right to do so on others that don't enjoy that bondage. Punish those you disagree with by letting them hang by their own rope, or realize later on that it is you today who is being hang by your own.
- Trundle 9y ago
  You can't "punish people by letting them hang their own rope" when they don't actually get hung, because they're still around afterwards but now a burden. They now have to rely (more) on the social safety net, or turn to crime, or just sit around all poor and broken being unpleasant to look at. A society that has decided to take on, at least partially, the burden of individual failure is incentivised to try to prevent it. If you were to propose some sort of "unaccredited investors get to invest in risky markets if they agree to be put on a boat and cast out to sea if they fail" then I could see myself accepting that.
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    We plunge deeper into the rabbit hole. If only a citizen could decide to renounce taxes for services the government provides but that he doesn't use! We are now all forced to contribute in name of helping the needy, but then we ask in return that they stay needy, and that attempts to rise above their station will be met with the reminder that it is the best for them and for everyone to remain ignorant of such matters. How caritative, how empathic and how benevolent are those that get their nobility validated with their bank account statement.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  So what happens when irresponsible investors plunge the country back into another great depression? How are you going to prevent the mistakes of others from causing a financial collapse which causes me to get laid off, through no fault of my own?
  - conanbatt 9y ago
    You overestimate the cost of speculative gambles, but let me ask a the opposite: if the regulation costs you your job and an economic recession who is going to compensate you for it? Because as far as i know the government has never given a check to compensate for its mistakes.
    - patentatt 9y ago
      So much wrong with everything you said. First, the cost of speculative gambles is economic collapse. Such gambles were a root cause of the Great Depression. Second, how exactly is regulating investment going to cost anybody their job? Think it through. Maintaining the current state of regulation will have an effect now because ... ? It doesn’t make sense. Third, and this is by far the dumbest thing you said, of course the big bad gummint picks up the tab when people lose their jobs, it’s called unemployment! How fortunate you are to live with all of this evil regulation that you can be coddled into thinking that you know better than the generations that came before and put in place these institutions and norms. Libertarianism is a first world disease of entitlement that is only enabled by the stability and prosperity that effective government creates. It’d be so ironic so as to be funny if it weren’t so sad.
      - conanbatt 9y ago
        > First, the cost of speculative gambles is economic collapse. Such gambles were a root cause of the Great Depression A man has earnt a nobel prize of economics by detailing how the federal reserve's money supply policy was the most noticeable trigger of the 1930's economic collapse. But even if you disagreed with that, speculation is definitely not what caused the great depression. - The popular fear of engrossing and forestalling [types of speculative activity outlawed in England] may be compared to the popular terrors and suspicions of witchcraft. The unfortunate wretches accused of this latter crime were not more innocent of the misfortunes imputed to them than those who have been accused of the former - > Second, how exactly is regulating investment going to cost anybody their job? Think it through By restricting investment it lowers wage growth and employment. The rate of investment is maybe the best predictor of productivity increases and wage growth. > Third, and this is by far the dumbest thing you said, of course the big bad gummint picks up the tab when people lose their jobs, it’s called unemployment! Unemployment benefits are paid by the population, not by the government. Government is unable to compensate for its mistakes, because government owns nothing at all. Taxes are the ultimate ninja loan. > How fortunate you are to live with all of this evil regulation that you can be coddled into thinking that you know better than the generations that came before and put in place these institutions and norms. What is unfortunate is to disagree with it and still being obligated to follow it. If you find those kind of regulations upon the action of individuals beneficial, then the only thing you have to do is allow the Libertarians you so despise not follow them, and harm themselves. AFter that you will be able to enjoy your cautious riches and laugh at them, while not incurring any loss and having relative advantages.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> I fail to see how that makes it any better Lotteries are not run, nor marketed, as investments. Some people mistakenly think of them as such. They predictably lose money. Because of private lotteries' histories with fraud, almost every modern nation has the state run (or heavily regulate) lotteries.

conanbatt 9y ago
So a company has to claim it loses money to be absolved of any moral burden? IF only the SEC accepted that.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > So a company has to claim it loses money to be absolved of any moral burden? State and federal governments aren't private companies.
  - lr4444lr 9y ago
    I think you're missing his point. Those very entities have agencies which are both "protecting" the public by imposing regulations that prevent them from expenditures with negative expected value, and at the same time peddle them. Imagine if there were a state-run cigarette producing public benefit corporations alongside public health departments. You'd have two agencies, one cultivating and the other discouraging the same toxic habit at great public expense. We already have this with various OTB/gaming commissions and gambling addiction services. It's an insane conflict of interest to waste tax dollars on.
    - nostrademons 9y ago
      Also corn subsidies vs. obesity-related healthcare; free roads & parking vs. smog controls; loose monetary policy vs. financial bailouts; having everyone prepare their own tax returns (as opposed to the IRS just sending out a bill along with their calculations) vs. spending money prosecuting tax evaders; and CIA-financed terrorists using our own weapons against our military. When you think about it, most of humanity's problems come from "fixes" put forth by some other branch of humanity. Humans are not particularly logical or inclined to see the big picture; they are very good at feeling a pain point acutely and slapping a band aid over it. Over time, this becomes rather absurd, but in the meantime the complexity lets societies that act like this grow bigger populations and amass bigger armies, and so that's all you see today. Most historical peoples were quite happy to live as hunter gatherers, except that larger & more miserable societies had a knack for enslaving & eradicating them.