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For those that don't know, this was a keynote at DjangoCon, and was pretty well received. There's a common theme emerging from everyone that there are some wart

by jnoller 16y ago

For those that don't know, this was a keynote at DjangoCon, and was pretty well received. There's a common theme emerging from everyone that there are some warts, and that they can and should be fixed (both code-wise and socially). Eric's slides should not be taken on their face as a damnation of Django; rather Eric likes Django, and simply wants to make it better.

jnoller 16y ago
I also need to point out: Even core committers here admit there are issues which need to be fixed.
Mod_daniel 16y ago
Do you know how long it will be before the actual video is up?
- jnoller 16y ago
  Maybe a week or two at the most (I hope) - looking at the slides alone strips ALL of the context off of the talk, and results in serious confusion. I wish he hadn't posted the slides; instead waiting for the video.
mst 16y ago
Of course. Those of us who're closely involved in a project can see areas of wrongness very clearly. I'll happily explain to my classes what I hate about the software I'm teaching them - doesn't mean I don't think it's still less hateful than the alternatives :)
jacobian 16y ago
To add a bit of context, I suggested Eric as a keynoter and encouraged him to give this talk, so the idea that the Django core team -- of which I'm a member -- isn't responsive is bullshit. In fact, we've had a "what's wrong with Django" talk at every DjangoCon -- the first had two, actually: Cal Henderson's hilarious talk, and Mark Ramm's incredibly insightful analysis of how Django can avoid some of the mistakes Zope made. It's a bit of pet project of mine: I'm firmly convinced that we need a steady stream of constructive criticism. I unfortunately wasn't able to attend Eric's talk, but the slides have some great and valid points, and I suspect the video will be even better. Many of his conclusions (and the points made here) make me uncomfortable and unhappy about the status quo, and that's exactly the point. If you look over the history of the "what's wrong" keynotes, in most cases the issues raised get fixed in the next release or two. For example, past "what's wrong" keynotes have complained about a lack of multiple database support, the weak "if" template tag, and puny CSRF protection -- all things fixed in Django 1.2. So look, y'all can look on this as a set of complaints, or reasons not to use Django, or whatever the heck you want. To me, it's a todo list. [edit: typos]
Locke1689 16y ago
One thing: I would consider Mercurial first, Git second. Python has a very close relationship with Mercurial already (obviously) and I find that Bitbucket is as good as or better than Github in the most important ways.

by jnoller 16y ago

jnoller 16y ago

I also need to point out: Even core committers here admit there are issues which need to be fixed.

Mod_daniel 16y ago

Do you know how long it will be before the actual video is up?

jnoller 16y ago
Maybe a week or two at the most (I hope) - looking at the slides alone strips ALL of the context off of the talk, and results in serious confusion. I wish he hadn't posted the slides; instead waiting for the video.

mst 16y ago

Of course. Those of us who're closely involved in a project can see areas of wrongness very clearly. I'll happily explain to my classes what I hate about the software I'm teaching them - doesn't mean I don't think it's still less hateful than the alternatives :)

jacobian 16y ago

To add a bit of context, I suggested Eric as a keynoter and encouraged him to give this talk, so the idea that the Django core team -- of which I'm a member -- isn't responsive is bullshit. In fact, we've had a "what's wrong with Django" talk at every DjangoCon -- the first had two, actually: Cal Henderson's hilarious talk, and Mark Ramm's incredibly insightful analysis of how Django can avoid some of the mistakes Zope made. It's a bit of pet project of mine: I'm firmly convinced that we need a steady stream of constructive criticism. I unfortunately wasn't able to attend Eric's talk, but the slides have some great and valid points, and I suspect the video will be even better. Many of his conclusions (and the points made here) make me uncomfortable and unhappy about the status quo, and that's exactly the point. If you look over the history of the "what's wrong" keynotes, in most cases the issues raised get fixed in the next release or two. For example, past "what's wrong" keynotes have complained about a lack of multiple database support, the weak "if" template tag, and puny CSRF protection -- all things fixed in Django 1.2. So look, y'all can look on this as a set of complaints, or reasons not to use Django, or whatever the heck you want. To me, it's a todo list. [edit: typos]

Locke1689 16y ago

One thing: I would consider Mercurial first, Git second. Python has a very close relationship with Mercurial already (obviously) and I find that Bitbucket is as good as or better than Github in the most important ways.