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>Tariffs are an extremely inefficient form of redistribution. If you want to fix the wealth gap, just make the pie as large as possible and redistribute directl

>Tariffs are an extremely inefficient form of redistribution. If you want to fix the wealth gap, just make the pie as large as possible and redistribute directly. It's hard to make the pie as large as possible when your second largest trade partner isn't playing fair. >I'm not sure what to make of this. It sounds like the plan is to make ourselves worse off in the hope that it also damages China? Most of the difference in labor practices comes from the fact that the US is much richer than China. It's unlikely that we can convince China to stop being poor by taxing ourselves. China has weird rules that restrict foreign companies from doing business there, which is a defacto tariff on all US corporations who want to sell to China. There's a lot of other industry-specific ways in which China is not playing fair. Of course American corporations want to manufacture in China to avoid paying for an American standard of living. And I get that poor countries are going to have lower wages. But these people are working in factories where suicide nets are necessary. We can pressure them to do better. Then of course there's environmental concerns which we're increasingly aware are an international problem, not an localized one. We can't enact law in China, but we can pressure them to make changes which are more fair to American competitors and healthier for the entire planet.

pm90 9y ago
> It's hard to make the pie as large as possible when your second largest trade partner isn't playing fair. Hey! Stop blaming other countries because your domestic system is so fucked up. That your politicians passed a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut which will benefit mostly the wealthy, instead of increasing taxes and using them to fund education, healthcare and other social programs. There seems more than enough pie to keep everyone happy, but some Americans seem hell bent on keeping the benefits of a wealthy society away from the neediest of you. > China has weird rules that restrict foreign companies from doing business there, which is a defacto tariff on all US corporations who want to sell to China. There's a lot of other industry-specific ways in which China is not playing fair. Of course American corporations want to manufacture in China to avoid paying for an American standard of living. And I get that poor countries are going to have lower wages. But these people are working in factories where suicide nets are necessary. We can pressure them to do better. Then of course there's environmental concerns which we're increasingly aware are an international problem, not an localized one. This is a straw man argument, please don't rationalize these tariffs as something that were meant to do anything but to right an imagined wrong in the mind of an Insane POTUS who thinks the trade deficit is an indication that other countries are "cheating" the US.
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  >Hey! Stop blaming other countries because your domestic system is so fucked up. That your politicians passed a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut which will benefit mostly the wealthy, instead of increasing taxes and using them to fund education, healthcare and other social programs. There seems more than enough pie to keep everyone happy, but some Americans seem hell bent on keeping the benefits of a wealthy society away from the neediest of you. What you said has nothing to do with whether we should be a doormat for China's unfair trade practices. If you're really concerned about the wellbeing of the poor I don't understand how, in this context, you could be more upset at American corporations than you are at Chinese corporations. >This is a straw man argument, please don't rationalize these tariffs as something that were meant to do anything but to right an imagined wrong in the mind of an Insane POTUS who thinks the trade deficit is an indication that other countries are "cheating" the US. I suspect you and I feel similarly about Trump. I don't have particularly strong feelings of support for these tariffs, but it's been clear to me since the 80s that we needed to fight back in the trade war China has been fighting against us since then. There aren't a lot of levers to pull here, there's tariffs, sanctions... I dunno what else. The biggest problem with these tariffs is the fact that it's unilateral. Stuff is fungible so it's stupid unless we can get the rest of the world to participate and push China to behave.
  - pm90 9y ago
    > What you said has nothing to do with whether we should be a doormat for China's unfair trade practices. If you're really concerned about the wellbeing of the poor I don't understand how, in this context, you could be more upset at American corporations than you are at Chinese corporations. I thought the point you were making was that it is not possible to have enough resources ("pie") to benefit all Americans (rich and poor) unless the "unfair trade practices of China" were somehow reigned in. So it absolutely has everything to do with trade. If there is already more than enough wealth (which I argue there is) and the problem is one of unequal distribution of it, then trying to tweak trade seems like an suboptimal strategy. > I suspect you and I feel similarly about Trump. I don't have particularly strong feelings of support for these tariffs, but it's been clear to me since the 80s that we needed to fight back in the trade war China has been fighting against us since then. There aren't a lot of levers to pull here, there's tariffs, sanctions... I dunno what else. The biggest problem with these tariffs is the fact that it's unilateral. Stuff is fungible so it's stupid unless we can get the rest of the world to participate and push China to behave. China has made the jump from developing to developed in a shockingly short period of time. In the process, they have managed to mostly solve the problem of providing food to millions of Chinese and also providing a path to middle class for the same folks. I don't agree with authoritarianism and Chinese trade policies either; but to characterize that as a trade war is being much too hyperbolic. They are and always have been protectionist; every developing economy is. The reason previous US administrations didn't impose tariffs weren't because they weren't brave enough or never thought of them, its because the worldview was that once China made the transition to developed country, it would gradually loosen the protectionism as well. And I don't think any country will join with the US on anything significant with this caustic and highly incompetent POTUS ripping up longtime diplomatic goodwill with allies and heaping praise on authoritarian rivals...

pm90 9y ago

> It's hard to make the pie as large as possible when your second largest trade partner isn't playing fair. Hey! Stop blaming other countries because your domestic system is so fucked up. That your politicians passed a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut which will benefit mostly the wealthy, instead of increasing taxes and using them to fund education, healthcare and other social programs. There seems more than enough pie to keep everyone happy, but some Americans seem hell bent on keeping the benefits of a wealthy society away from the neediest of you. > China has weird rules that restrict foreign companies from doing business there, which is a defacto tariff on all US corporations who want to sell to China. There's a lot of other industry-specific ways in which China is not playing fair. Of course American corporations want to manufacture in China to avoid paying for an American standard of living. And I get that poor countries are going to have lower wages. But these people are working in factories where suicide nets are necessary. We can pressure them to do better. Then of course there's environmental concerns which we're increasingly aware are an international problem, not an localized one. This is a straw man argument, please don't rationalize these tariffs as something that were meant to do anything but to right an imagined wrong in the mind of an Insane POTUS who thinks the trade deficit is an indication that other countries are "cheating" the US.

Consultant32452 9y ago
>Hey! Stop blaming other countries because your domestic system is so fucked up. That your politicians passed a 1.5 trillion dollar tax cut which will benefit mostly the wealthy, instead of increasing taxes and using them to fund education, healthcare and other social programs. There seems more than enough pie to keep everyone happy, but some Americans seem hell bent on keeping the benefits of a wealthy society away from the neediest of you. What you said has nothing to do with whether we should be a doormat for China's unfair trade practices. If you're really concerned about the wellbeing of the poor I don't understand how, in this context, you could be more upset at American corporations than you are at Chinese corporations. >This is a straw man argument, please don't rationalize these tariffs as something that were meant to do anything but to right an imagined wrong in the mind of an Insane POTUS who thinks the trade deficit is an indication that other countries are "cheating" the US. I suspect you and I feel similarly about Trump. I don't have particularly strong feelings of support for these tariffs, but it's been clear to me since the 80s that we needed to fight back in the trade war China has been fighting against us since then. There aren't a lot of levers to pull here, there's tariffs, sanctions... I dunno what else. The biggest problem with these tariffs is the fact that it's unilateral. Stuff is fungible so it's stupid unless we can get the rest of the world to participate and push China to behave.
- pm90 9y ago
  > What you said has nothing to do with whether we should be a doormat for China's unfair trade practices. If you're really concerned about the wellbeing of the poor I don't understand how, in this context, you could be more upset at American corporations than you are at Chinese corporations. I thought the point you were making was that it is not possible to have enough resources ("pie") to benefit all Americans (rich and poor) unless the "unfair trade practices of China" were somehow reigned in. So it absolutely has everything to do with trade. If there is already more than enough wealth (which I argue there is) and the problem is one of unequal distribution of it, then trying to tweak trade seems like an suboptimal strategy. > I suspect you and I feel similarly about Trump. I don't have particularly strong feelings of support for these tariffs, but it's been clear to me since the 80s that we needed to fight back in the trade war China has been fighting against us since then. There aren't a lot of levers to pull here, there's tariffs, sanctions... I dunno what else. The biggest problem with these tariffs is the fact that it's unilateral. Stuff is fungible so it's stupid unless we can get the rest of the world to participate and push China to behave. China has made the jump from developing to developed in a shockingly short period of time. In the process, they have managed to mostly solve the problem of providing food to millions of Chinese and also providing a path to middle class for the same folks. I don't agree with authoritarianism and Chinese trade policies either; but to characterize that as a trade war is being much too hyperbolic. They are and always have been protectionist; every developing economy is. The reason previous US administrations didn't impose tariffs weren't because they weren't brave enough or never thought of them, its because the worldview was that once China made the transition to developed country, it would gradually loosen the protectionism as well. And I don't think any country will join with the US on anything significant with this caustic and highly incompetent POTUS ripping up longtime diplomatic goodwill with allies and heaping praise on authoritarian rivals...