6 ms·

Ultralight startups: little capital, just computer

63 points by pietrofmaggi 16y ago

tmcw 16y ago
Ultralight startups: there's one of them mentioned and it survives by SEO and reselling. Is this much different than opening up a local McDonalds and advertising? Is this really relevant to HN?
- chadmalik 16y ago
  I agree. This type of SEO business is nothing new and mainly monetizes naivete of web users. It does not add real value to the world.
  - nandemo 16y ago
    He connects sellers and buyers, just like a grocery store does. He gives business to t-shirts producers who wouldn't necessarily be able to chose what t-shirts to make, to market them, charge for them, etc. And he helps buyers by giving them a convenient way to order and pay for t-shirts.
- il 16y ago
  I can't tell which you loathe more- SEO or a real business model reselling actual products. This is an article someone who created a very successful startup at a young age by "hacking" the traditional clothing value chain and business model. This is exactly hacker news. If it doesn't strike your fancy, there's an article about pants that I'm sure you would enjoy more right over there <--.
  - seanstickle 16y ago
    If by "hacking the traditional value chain and business model", you mean cloning another company's site and calling it his own.
  - tmcw 16y ago
    It's hard to say which I loathe more. Perhaps what I loathe the most is that the startup atmosphere and the skills that one acquires in tech allow you to do incredible things and make the world better (or at least cooler), but here's something that adds friction to the world economy.
il 16y ago
These types of e-commerce businesses are not something you hear I'm trying to do something similar right now as a side project. I'm not selling t-shirts, but the economics are similar. If you actually research it, it takes very little startup capital(several thousand dollars) to go to a manufacturer and create your own product, even professional-looking consumer packaged goods. These types of business may not attract investors or get acquired, but it's a great way to generate easy, automatic income streams while you work on something bigger.
- secret 16y ago
  I've been wanting to hear more about this type of business, but don't really know a good source that covers it. For example, the other day there was a story on here about a site that had just reached 200 subscribers paying $10/month after I believe 2 years. It was a lot of work and more successful than most apps will ever be. It was a really interesting read, but got me thinking: wouldn't it have been easier/more profitable to get into e-commerce?
  - hellweaver666 16y ago
    I battle with this every day. I've done e-commerce in the past, and would say I did pretty well (over £70,000 turnover in the first year). I've also built dozens of e-commerce sites for other people and advised them on how to achieve success. With my existing code, I could probably build an e-commerce site by this time tomorrow, then spend a few hours populating the site and bang... with PPC advertising I could have orders coming in by the end of the week. The problem is, it's too easy - there's no challenge there for me and running an e-commerce site is a lot of hassle, especially if you ship products yourself, hold inventory etc etc. That's why at the moment, I'm focusing on my stock photo startup, it's more of a challenge, and if it works how I hope it will, it should require less physical work on my part (no shipping products etc).
    - il 16y ago
      Fulfillment is relatively cheap and you benefit from significant postage discounts. There's no reason you should be shipping products yourself.
dstein 16y ago
I think this is the sad reality of the world we live in today. The job market sucks. Salaries are consistently dropping. People are being squeezed from every direction. And there's no such thing as a long term job anymore. The market is basically telling every highly skilled worker to start their own business or get in line at the welfare office.
- enjo 16y ago
  Except that the unemployment rate for those with a college degree (IE: the "highly skilled") is only at 4.6%. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDbvr90jK70YCxF5Jujg_-7X1FIQD9I0MTS80 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDbvr90jK7... I need to do some more digging for salary implications...anecdotally I know that salaries for top-end software folks are still very high.
  - runT1ME 16y ago
    I wonder what is better, being unemployed, or being employed at minimum wage being saddled with tons of debt from a useless education...
    - shadowfox 16y ago
      Is the average college grad earning only $7-$8 an hour?
- muhfuhkuh 16y ago
  "Sad reality"? I see the biggest opportunity for US growth since the Great Depression. When that struck, people became reflexively wary of investing in markets, blaming Wall St. and scorning robber barons. So, they sold apples on the street, or built scrap metal businesses, or little collective cottage industries, or invented the better mousetrap or dish detergent or soda or milk delivery service. The Obama administration has the chance to change the narrative away from the WPA-type government works, consumer stimulus and all these other FDR/Keynesian tricks that tea partiers liken to Soviet Russia and instead focus on the biggest driver of employment and b2b consumption: Small business. I think it's well passed time for us to really soak corporations who in the early 2000s took every tax break and still continued outsourcing, offshoring, right-sizing, and "pivoting toward core competencies" or whatever that hell the new PHB term is today. Tax the s--t out of them. What are they doing with that cash, anyway? They're definitely not hiring here and they're not reinvesting except outside of the US, where the growth is larger and the market less stagnant. Tax them until they hurt or move to Dubai or wherever the hell they go nowadays. Don't believe their narrative in the press that they're the biggest driver of employment. SMBs have _always_ been the big hirer; larger than the Fed, larger than the megacorps. Obama's administrative focus should be almost laser-like on small business and entrepreneurship, and not just Green ones. ALL of small business should get every damn tax break his administration can give. That, added with tax incentives for SMB purchase of health care, can make working for an SMB even more attractive to potential hires. This is the moment for the SBA to become one of the most important departments in the Government during this recession. They should be flush with cash, doling out loans at-cost or at lower rates than the stingy big banks that won't lend to Main St. anymore. Let them sit on the sidelines while the government guarantees the survival of the US economy. They'll come around eventually and drop their CDO and leveraged funny money games and start focussing on lending money to fuel growth industries again. Hey, one can dream.
aaroneous 16y ago
I like the concept of "ultralight startups" but there have to be better examples out there that are, yanno ... actually startups. This is just someone middlemaning an affiliate program - something that's really old hat in the ecommerce world.
- _corbett 16y ago
  I think he qualifies as a startup more than many "startups" taking rounds of funding never achieving revenue
cantbecool 16y ago
He hired programmers in India to code for him. Albeit, there is nothing wrong with that, but if he ever tries to update the code himself, he is going to be in for a rude awakening. I too think this article isn't HN type material.
- atomical 16y ago
  So no Indians can produce quality code? I find my experiences suggest the opposite.
  - patrickk 16y ago
    I think the comment was less about looking down on off-shored coding tasks and more about the guy not being able to maintain his own site. HN readers would generally take full responsibility for a task like that.
  - cantbecool 16y ago
    I just don't think he's such a 'big' entrepreneur relying on other peoples code/work. I have nothing against any programmers nationality. Sorry if I offended you.
    - mbateman 16y ago
      "Programmer" and "entrepreneur" aren't remotely coextensive. And hiring someone to code something for you is a very particular, entrepreneurial species of "relying" on someone.
    - bond 16y ago
      I think you'll find a LOT of entrepreneurs that rely on others to do the coding... What defines a 'big' entrepreneur is not the ability to code...
    - gregpilling 16y ago
      He is cash flow positive and didn't rely on anyone else to do it. What is wrong with that? For those that think he is lesser because he didn't do his own coding, what do you think about people that don't do their own graphic design? or their own taxes? Be happy that someone made it, with an idea and a little bit of luck and determination.
jessor 16y ago
The next two weeks will tell if it's real, but this article might have kicked me into doing a nice little niche webapp :)
zackattack 16y ago
I have no idea what's up with all the hate in this thread. Code is both a means to and end and an end in itself. Hacker News attracts people of each perspectives, and also some people like me who share both perspectives. Can't we all just get along AND give this guy some credit for a massively resourceful accomplishment, and a nice contribution to the global economy?
seanstickle 16y ago
ooShirts appears to be a fairly direct rip-off of a company I used to work for, CustomInk.com. Compare: http://www.ooshirts.com/ http://www.ooshirts.com/ vs http://www.customink.com/ http://www.customink.com/. Maybe it doesn't take too much money to start up a company that is more or less ripping off another company. This isn't to say that competition in providing tshirts is a bad thing. But a profile of a company that lavishes praise on the cleverness of starting up an ultralight, while discreetly ignoring that his web application is a page-for-page knockoff of a larger company is fairly disingenuous. It's possible that the reporter didn't know about CustomInk. But that doesn't excuse Raymond Lei's profiting by stealing the inventiveness of another company.
- muhfuhkuh 16y ago
  So, how is customink.com different from, say, cafepress.com, which launched before? Or spreadshirt for that matter. Making your own custom t-shirts is not really a novel idea. And, it's not the idea that the story is focussing on anyway, it's the fact that it's basically a two-man shop with a 19 year old founder completely bootstrapping it while waiting to declare a major in college, and the grim economic realities nurturing these "ultralight" businesses.
  - seanstickle 16y ago
    As a business, making and selling tshirts is no great innovation, I agree. But when the web application is a painstakingly detailed clone of another company's, I think that the virtue of "completely bootstrapping it" to be undermined, and reduced to little more than a "me too" business. I think that if someone started up a company called MacRonald's, specialized in selling cheap hamburgers, and had a clown mascot who wore a funny tophat, it wouldn't be praised much. Even if the founder was a 19-year-old.
    - c1sc0 16y ago
      What is the difference between me-too and competition? Or is competition suddenly unhealthy. If the original company is so much better than the upstart, they don't have anything to worry about.
_corbett 16y ago
nice work! I love seeing businesses which don't rely on big capital.

63 points by pietrofmaggi 16y ago

tmcw 16y ago

Ultralight startups: there's one of them mentioned and it survives by SEO and reselling. Is this much different than opening up a local McDonalds and advertising? Is this really relevant to HN?

chadmalik 16y ago
I agree. This type of SEO business is nothing new and mainly monetizes naivete of web users. It does not add real value to the world.
- nandemo 16y ago
  He connects sellers and buyers, just like a grocery store does. He gives business to t-shirts producers who wouldn't necessarily be able to chose what t-shirts to make, to market them, charge for them, etc. And he helps buyers by giving them a convenient way to order and pay for t-shirts.
il 16y ago
I can't tell which you loathe more- SEO or a real business model reselling actual products. This is an article someone who created a very successful startup at a young age by "hacking" the traditional clothing value chain and business model. This is exactly hacker news. If it doesn't strike your fancy, there's an article about pants that I'm sure you would enjoy more right over there <--.
- seanstickle 16y ago
  If by "hacking the traditional value chain and business model", you mean cloning another company's site and calling it his own.
- tmcw 16y ago
  It's hard to say which I loathe more. Perhaps what I loathe the most is that the startup atmosphere and the skills that one acquires in tech allow you to do incredible things and make the world better (or at least cooler), but here's something that adds friction to the world economy.

il 16y ago

These types of e-commerce businesses are not something you hear I'm trying to do something similar right now as a side project. I'm not selling t-shirts, but the economics are similar. If you actually research it, it takes very little startup capital(several thousand dollars) to go to a manufacturer and create your own product, even professional-looking consumer packaged goods. These types of business may not attract investors or get acquired, but it's a great way to generate easy, automatic income streams while you work on something bigger.

secret 16y ago
I've been wanting to hear more about this type of business, but don't really know a good source that covers it. For example, the other day there was a story on here about a site that had just reached 200 subscribers paying $10/month after I believe 2 years. It was a lot of work and more successful than most apps will ever be. It was a really interesting read, but got me thinking: wouldn't it have been easier/more profitable to get into e-commerce?
- hellweaver666 16y ago
  I battle with this every day. I've done e-commerce in the past, and would say I did pretty well (over £70,000 turnover in the first year). I've also built dozens of e-commerce sites for other people and advised them on how to achieve success. With my existing code, I could probably build an e-commerce site by this time tomorrow, then spend a few hours populating the site and bang... with PPC advertising I could have orders coming in by the end of the week. The problem is, it's too easy - there's no challenge there for me and running an e-commerce site is a lot of hassle, especially if you ship products yourself, hold inventory etc etc. That's why at the moment, I'm focusing on my stock photo startup, it's more of a challenge, and if it works how I hope it will, it should require less physical work on my part (no shipping products etc).
  - il 16y ago
    Fulfillment is relatively cheap and you benefit from significant postage discounts. There's no reason you should be shipping products yourself.

dstein 16y ago

I think this is the sad reality of the world we live in today. The job market sucks. Salaries are consistently dropping. People are being squeezed from every direction. And there's no such thing as a long term job anymore. The market is basically telling every highly skilled worker to start their own business or get in line at the welfare office.

enjo 16y ago
Except that the unemployment rate for those with a college degree (IE: the "highly skilled") is only at 4.6%. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDbvr90jK70YCxF5Jujg_-7X1FIQD9I0MTS80 http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hDbvr90jK7... I need to do some more digging for salary implications...anecdotally I know that salaries for top-end software folks are still very high.
- runT1ME 16y ago
  I wonder what is better, being unemployed, or being employed at minimum wage being saddled with tons of debt from a useless education...
  - shadowfox 16y ago
    Is the average college grad earning only $7-$8 an hour?
muhfuhkuh 16y ago
"Sad reality"? I see the biggest opportunity for US growth since the Great Depression. When that struck, people became reflexively wary of investing in markets, blaming Wall St. and scorning robber barons. So, they sold apples on the street, or built scrap metal businesses, or little collective cottage industries, or invented the better mousetrap or dish detergent or soda or milk delivery service. The Obama administration has the chance to change the narrative away from the WPA-type government works, consumer stimulus and all these other FDR/Keynesian tricks that tea partiers liken to Soviet Russia and instead focus on the biggest driver of employment and b2b consumption: Small business. I think it's well passed time for us to really soak corporations who in the early 2000s took every tax break and still continued outsourcing, offshoring, right-sizing, and "pivoting toward core competencies" or whatever that hell the new PHB term is today. Tax the s--t out of them. What are they doing with that cash, anyway? They're definitely not hiring here and they're not reinvesting except outside of the US, where the growth is larger and the market less stagnant. Tax them until they hurt or move to Dubai or wherever the hell they go nowadays. Don't believe their narrative in the press that they're the biggest driver of employment. SMBs have _always_ been the big hirer; larger than the Fed, larger than the megacorps. Obama's administrative focus should be almost laser-like on small business and entrepreneurship, and not just Green ones. ALL of small business should get every damn tax break his administration can give. That, added with tax incentives for SMB purchase of health care, can make working for an SMB even more attractive to potential hires. This is the moment for the SBA to become one of the most important departments in the Government during this recession. They should be flush with cash, doling out loans at-cost or at lower rates than the stingy big banks that won't lend to Main St. anymore. Let them sit on the sidelines while the government guarantees the survival of the US economy. They'll come around eventually and drop their CDO and leveraged funny money games and start focussing on lending money to fuel growth industries again. Hey, one can dream.

aaroneous 16y ago

I like the concept of "ultralight startups" but there have to be better examples out there that are, yanno ... actually startups. This is just someone middlemaning an affiliate program - something that's really old hat in the ecommerce world.

_corbett 16y ago
I think he qualifies as a startup more than many "startups" taking rounds of funding never achieving revenue

cantbecool 16y ago

He hired programmers in India to code for him. Albeit, there is nothing wrong with that, but if he ever tries to update the code himself, he is going to be in for a rude awakening. I too think this article isn't HN type material.

atomical 16y ago
So no Indians can produce quality code? I find my experiences suggest the opposite.
- patrickk 16y ago
  I think the comment was less about looking down on off-shored coding tasks and more about the guy not being able to maintain his own site. HN readers would generally take full responsibility for a task like that.
- cantbecool 16y ago
  I just don't think he's such a 'big' entrepreneur relying on other peoples code/work. I have nothing against any programmers nationality. Sorry if I offended you.
  - mbateman 16y ago
    "Programmer" and "entrepreneur" aren't remotely coextensive. And hiring someone to code something for you is a very particular, entrepreneurial species of "relying" on someone.
  - bond 16y ago
    I think you'll find a LOT of entrepreneurs that rely on others to do the coding... What defines a 'big' entrepreneur is not the ability to code...
  - gregpilling 16y ago
    He is cash flow positive and didn't rely on anyone else to do it. What is wrong with that? For those that think he is lesser because he didn't do his own coding, what do you think about people that don't do their own graphic design? or their own taxes? Be happy that someone made it, with an idea and a little bit of luck and determination.

jessor 16y ago

The next two weeks will tell if it's real, but this article might have kicked me into doing a nice little niche webapp :)

zackattack 16y ago

I have no idea what's up with all the hate in this thread. Code is both a means to and end and an end in itself. Hacker News attracts people of each perspectives, and also some people like me who share both perspectives. Can't we all just get along AND give this guy some credit for a massively resourceful accomplishment, and a nice contribution to the global economy?

seanstickle 16y ago

ooShirts appears to be a fairly direct rip-off of a company I used to work for, CustomInk.com. Compare: http://www.ooshirts.com/ http://www.ooshirts.com/ vs http://www.customink.com/ http://www.customink.com/. Maybe it doesn't take too much money to start up a company that is more or less ripping off another company. This isn't to say that competition in providing tshirts is a bad thing. But a profile of a company that lavishes praise on the cleverness of starting up an ultralight, while discreetly ignoring that his web application is a page-for-page knockoff of a larger company is fairly disingenuous. It's possible that the reporter didn't know about CustomInk. But that doesn't excuse Raymond Lei's profiting by stealing the inventiveness of another company.

muhfuhkuh 16y ago
So, how is customink.com different from, say, cafepress.com, which launched before? Or spreadshirt for that matter. Making your own custom t-shirts is not really a novel idea. And, it's not the idea that the story is focussing on anyway, it's the fact that it's basically a two-man shop with a 19 year old founder completely bootstrapping it while waiting to declare a major in college, and the grim economic realities nurturing these "ultralight" businesses.
- seanstickle 16y ago
  As a business, making and selling tshirts is no great innovation, I agree. But when the web application is a painstakingly detailed clone of another company's, I think that the virtue of "completely bootstrapping it" to be undermined, and reduced to little more than a "me too" business. I think that if someone started up a company called MacRonald's, specialized in selling cheap hamburgers, and had a clown mascot who wore a funny tophat, it wouldn't be praised much. Even if the founder was a 19-year-old.
  - c1sc0 16y ago
    What is the difference between me-too and competition? Or is competition suddenly unhealthy. If the original company is so much better than the upstart, they don't have anything to worry about.

_corbett 16y ago

nice work! I love seeing businesses which don't rely on big capital.