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Note that I'm not saying Tesla Autopilot is ready to bet lives on, etc, etc etc... but I think we also need to address the problem of bad lane lines for humans

Note that I'm not saying Tesla Autopilot is ready to bet lives on, etc, etc etc... but I think we also need to address the problem of bad lane lines for humans too. The right side of the divider was virtually invisible. Anyone fully paying attention should also see the right-side lane markers continuing straight and stay with them, and see the barrier very early (although I usually see those with a lot more reflective markings and barrels to absorb energy), but - bad lane line markings can definitely throw off imperfect humans plenty too. The I-15 in Utah is notorious for this. Areas that have been under constant construction for years have layers of previous temporary lane markings that are badly removed and weren't clear to begin with, and you can be driving along with several lanes of traffic who suddenly get confused about which lane they should be following and start converging into the same lanes. Clear lane markings are not a requirement just for autopilot.

EADGBE 9y ago
The unclear-ness of the lines stood out to me, as well. Without a sensor-based roadway, I'm not sure how systems like this can be possible. For instance, very-wet roads at night have so much glare from headlights it's impossible to someones see the markings on the road, especially without any reflective/haptic coatings.
- stmfreak 9y ago
  The lack of lane markings and missing crash barrier are symptoms of deferred maintenance. Why would a sensor based roadway be immune to similar neglect?
  - notheguyouthink 9y ago
    In a best case scenario, I'd think that sensors would have the advantage of perfect clarity on when they are working, and when they aren't. Eg, if a stretch of sensors goes bad, cars would encounter them and immediately attempt to safely stop, pull over, etc. With this, we have AI having to predict when it does and when it doesn't know where the road is. A sensor approach could be akin to a railway, and the rails are either detected or not. A merge of the two methods would still be needed of course, to detect obstructions in the roadway, navigate safely in the emergency event that no sensors are available, etc. It would also be cool because we could define when and where those new roads are available. You wouldn't be able to drive AI to the Oregon Coast and have it suddenly fail on an untested cliffside. The road is either AI friendly or not. I'm sure there's flaws in this line of thought, I'm merely speculating.
notheguyouthink 9y ago
Semi related, but in rainy weather (Washington), there's plenty of times where I'm basically guessing at the line location. I'm not sure if I'm especially bad at it, but with light reflections all over the place, I lose track of those little white lines. This gets made worse then construction strips old lines and draws new ones a couple feet over. The old ones in dry weather are barely visible, but in watery weather, they hold water differently than normal road surfaces.. meaning there are now lines which, due to different water levels of normal road surfaces, form visible lane lines competing with the real lane lines. The reflective bumps are a huge boon for me when they exist. I'm always surprised more accidents aren't caused by poorly visible lines.
orev 9y ago
I agree that lines should be fixed, however humans rely on things other than lane lines, and autopilots should too. When you can't see you get cues from other cars, estimated distance from both sides of the road, sign placement above your head or on the side of the road, etc... If we need to repaint all roads to make them work for auto-driving cars, we might as well just move to one of those simple systems like where a robot follows a pre-drawn line on a piece of paper. Maybe throw some bar codes in there so the car knows where it is. If the cars can't deal with environments that even humans can, I'm not sure what the point is anymore. I expect a self-driving car can see through things like fog and darkness better than a human.
- kneel 9y ago
  Humans primarily follow lane markings. When these are missing and/or unclear it becomes very difficult to guess where you are supposed to be. Anyone who has driven through road construction and had to follow temporary lines while ignoring blacked out lines knows this struggle.
- TallGuyShort 9y ago
  >> If we need to repaint all roads to make them work for auto-driving cars No I'm saying the section in the video is in need of repainting even for humans.
  - orev 9y ago
    And I did not disagree, however if auto driving cars can’t deal with that situation at least as good a humans, then we have a problem. Obviously we’re at 1.0, so things will get better.
dlwdlw 9y ago
Feel like the system should be made of layers. A rational one that follows lanes and rules and such but also a more reptilian backup system that self-preserves. The latter can't be used all the time because of danger to others but it's similar to the evasive moves someone would take in danger. This same pattern of trying to make a perfect system instead of multiple layers by acknowledging lack of perfection exists quite a bit in tech.
floatingatoll 9y ago
101 southbound has a carpool ramp to 85 that solves this problem by using an exit only lane, which works remarkably well at keeping cell phone drivers from ramming the median head on. Tesla MV drivers, how does autopilot fare there?

EADGBE 9y ago

The unclear-ness of the lines stood out to me, as well. Without a sensor-based roadway, I'm not sure how systems like this can be possible. For instance, very-wet roads at night have so much glare from headlights it's impossible to someones see the markings on the road, especially without any reflective/haptic coatings.

stmfreak 9y ago
The lack of lane markings and missing crash barrier are symptoms of deferred maintenance. Why would a sensor based roadway be immune to similar neglect?
- notheguyouthink 9y ago
  In a best case scenario, I'd think that sensors would have the advantage of perfect clarity on when they are working, and when they aren't. Eg, if a stretch of sensors goes bad, cars would encounter them and immediately attempt to safely stop, pull over, etc. With this, we have AI having to predict when it does and when it doesn't know where the road is. A sensor approach could be akin to a railway, and the rails are either detected or not. A merge of the two methods would still be needed of course, to detect obstructions in the roadway, navigate safely in the emergency event that no sensors are available, etc. It would also be cool because we could define when and where those new roads are available. You wouldn't be able to drive AI to the Oregon Coast and have it suddenly fail on an untested cliffside. The road is either AI friendly or not. I'm sure there's flaws in this line of thought, I'm merely speculating.

notheguyouthink 9y ago

Semi related, but in rainy weather (Washington), there's plenty of times where I'm basically guessing at the line location. I'm not sure if I'm especially bad at it, but with light reflections all over the place, I lose track of those little white lines. This gets made worse then construction strips old lines and draws new ones a couple feet over. The old ones in dry weather are barely visible, but in watery weather, they hold water differently than normal road surfaces.. meaning there are now lines which, due to different water levels of normal road surfaces, form visible lane lines competing with the real lane lines. The reflective bumps are a huge boon for me when they exist. I'm always surprised more accidents aren't caused by poorly visible lines.

orev 9y ago

I agree that lines should be fixed, however humans rely on things other than lane lines, and autopilots should too. When you can't see you get cues from other cars, estimated distance from both sides of the road, sign placement above your head or on the side of the road, etc... If we need to repaint all roads to make them work for auto-driving cars, we might as well just move to one of those simple systems like where a robot follows a pre-drawn line on a piece of paper. Maybe throw some bar codes in there so the car knows where it is. If the cars can't deal with environments that even humans can, I'm not sure what the point is anymore. I expect a self-driving car can see through things like fog and darkness better than a human.

kneel 9y ago
Humans primarily follow lane markings. When these are missing and/or unclear it becomes very difficult to guess where you are supposed to be. Anyone who has driven through road construction and had to follow temporary lines while ignoring blacked out lines knows this struggle.
TallGuyShort 9y ago
>> If we need to repaint all roads to make them work for auto-driving cars No I'm saying the section in the video is in need of repainting even for humans.
- orev 9y ago
  And I did not disagree, however if auto driving cars can’t deal with that situation at least as good a humans, then we have a problem. Obviously we’re at 1.0, so things will get better.

dlwdlw 9y ago

Feel like the system should be made of layers. A rational one that follows lanes and rules and such but also a more reptilian backup system that self-preserves. The latter can't be used all the time because of danger to others but it's similar to the evasive moves someone would take in danger. This same pattern of trying to make a perfect system instead of multiple layers by acknowledging lack of perfection exists quite a bit in tech.

floatingatoll 9y ago

101 southbound has a carpool ramp to 85 that solves this problem by using an exit only lane, which works remarkably well at keeping cell phone drivers from ramming the median head on. Tesla MV drivers, how does autopilot fare there?