2 ms·

Well, the nickel-and-diming attitude seems to have a strong prejudice against qualified people, even if you say "least amount for a qualified person". Engineer

by jbooth 16y ago

Well, the nickel-and-diming attitude seems to have a strong prejudice against qualified people, even if you say "least amount for a qualified person". Engineering departments managed with that philosophy tend to be filled with mediocre hacks. As far as teachers working less.. do you know any young teachers? We're both on Hacker News right now. Teachers have been at work since 7AM teaching in front of a classroom, and are currently doing grading and lesson planning. Regarding the pensions, I agree it's an area for reform, and a case in point of union dysfunction. But as long as people like you come across as borderline hostile to the idea of teachers being paid well for a job well done, they're going to close ranks behind the union, and I would too. EDIT: I don't care what some report says about hours in the aggregate, especially one that presumably intermingles running-out-the-clock 64yos with young teachers. I don't know how it was compiled but I'm sure I could find one saying the exact opposite if I cared to. I'm assuming you don't know many teachers, otherwise you would get what I'm saying here.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Why do you keep repeating this myth that teachers are not underworked? I've already debunked it in conversations with you. Here it is again: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf I'm beginning to think you are not interested in a fact-based discussion...
timwiseman 16y ago
I don't care what some report says about hours in the aggregate, especially one that presumably intermingles running-out-the-clock 64yos with young teachers. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but this seems to be flatly stating that Yummyfajitas was right in saying you do not care about the facts? I'm assuming you don't know many teachers, otherwise you would get what I'm saying here. I have an aunt and uncle that are teachers and a wife that is going to school to become a teacher right now, but I largely agree with yummyfajitas and he is carefully supporting his arguments with facts and links. If he and I are wrong about it, would you mind pointing out exactly how rather than saying we just don't understand?
- jbooth 16y ago
  To start with, the fact that it's comparing some self-reported statistics between teachers and "other professionals"? And mushing them together into some total minutes worked figure? They're estimating the hours worked by a teacher at less than 40. I've never met a teacher who put in less than 40 hours. Then, as I said upthread, the fact that it's mashing young teachers (the topic at hand) together with running-the-clock 64yo teachers really brings it all together. Maybe this explains the sub-40 hour workweek. Unfortunately, a 5-page PDF report with 4 graphs doesn't summarize the be-all of teaching.
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    I assume "other professionals" means professionals who are not teachers, as per BLS classifications. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1981/11/rpt1full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1981/11/rpt1full.pdf Also, if you bothered to read my source as far as page 2, you'd realize that it does provide breakdowns based on teacher age. Apparently it's young teachers who work less, and older (50+) teachers who work more (5.1 hours). See table 2 on page 2.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      On that graph: "NOTE: The calculations of hours worked are based on data collected about how survey respondents spent “yesterday.” Thus, average weekly work hours are an extrapolation based on the activity for 1 day." I mean how much confidence do you have in this thing? And you're repeating it like it's the bible? Let me ask you a question, do you consider all hours of work equal? What if you compared office work to, say, mining, if they worked an hour fewer, would you say you work harder?
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        I don't understand - do you believe the note invalidates the table? If so, why? As for why I quote this study, the ATUS is the standard source for data of this nature. Feel free to post better data if you have it.

by jbooth 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Why do you keep repeating this myth that teachers are not underworked? I've already debunked it in conversations with you. Here it is again: http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2008/03/art4full.pdf I'm beginning to think you are not interested in a fact-based discussion...

timwiseman 16y ago

I don't care what some report says about hours in the aggregate, especially one that presumably intermingles running-out-the-clock 64yos with young teachers. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but this seems to be flatly stating that Yummyfajitas was right in saying you do not care about the facts? I'm assuming you don't know many teachers, otherwise you would get what I'm saying here. I have an aunt and uncle that are teachers and a wife that is going to school to become a teacher right now, but I largely agree with yummyfajitas and he is carefully supporting his arguments with facts and links. If he and I are wrong about it, would you mind pointing out exactly how rather than saying we just don't understand?

jbooth 16y ago
To start with, the fact that it's comparing some self-reported statistics between teachers and "other professionals"? And mushing them together into some total minutes worked figure? They're estimating the hours worked by a teacher at less than 40. I've never met a teacher who put in less than 40 hours. Then, as I said upthread, the fact that it's mashing young teachers (the topic at hand) together with running-the-clock 64yo teachers really brings it all together. Maybe this explains the sub-40 hour workweek. Unfortunately, a 5-page PDF report with 4 graphs doesn't summarize the be-all of teaching.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I assume "other professionals" means professionals who are not teachers, as per BLS classifications. http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1981/11/rpt1full.pdf http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1981/11/rpt1full.pdf Also, if you bothered to read my source as far as page 2, you'd realize that it does provide breakdowns based on teacher age. Apparently it's young teachers who work less, and older (50+) teachers who work more (5.1 hours). See table 2 on page 2.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    On that graph: "NOTE: The calculations of hours worked are based on data collected about how survey respondents spent “yesterday.” Thus, average weekly work hours are an extrapolation based on the activity for 1 day." I mean how much confidence do you have in this thing? And you're repeating it like it's the bible? Let me ask you a question, do you consider all hours of work equal? What if you compared office work to, say, mining, if they worked an hour fewer, would you say you work harder?
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      I don't understand - do you believe the note invalidates the table? If so, why? As for why I quote this study, the ATUS is the standard source for data of this nature. Feel free to post better data if you have it.