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I agree that Gay Shame behaves badly, but it doesn't really change my point. Even the most measured YIMBY spokespeople do a bad job communicating with people wh

I agree that Gay Shame behaves badly, but it doesn't really change my point. Even the most measured YIMBY spokespeople do a bad job communicating with people who aren't relatively well-off. YIMBY movements won't succeed until we convince poor renters that THEIR lives will also be better in a denser, more affordable city.

magduf 9y ago
>YIMBY movements won't succeed until we convince poor renters that THEIR lives will also be better in a denser, more affordable city. If that simple truth isn't immediately obvious to poor renters, then it seems like they're beyond hope.
- joeblubaugh 9y ago
  This is not how you get things done in a society - you can’t just say “they don’t agree with me already, they must be stupid”. You have to actually talk to them.
  - magduf 9y ago
    That works with some stuff, but the example given was so plainly obvious that if a significant number people disbelieve it, it's really a lot like the inhabitants of 1600s Salem believing in witchcraft: they're just so mired in stupid thinking that I don't think you're going to convince them. It's very simple: you can only fit so many people into a given space depending on the housing type (e.g., single-family houses vs. high-rise condos), and the laws of supply and demand apply: if more people want to live in a place, the prices are going to go up, so the only way to mitigate that is to build denser housing. If demand is increasing, there simply is no way to keep housing affordable if everyone demands to hang onto less-efficient types of housing. This isn't a difficult concept. I realize this isn't quite as simple as "water is wet", but still, it's pretty easy and if people don't accept it after a 2-minute explanation (which I assume they've heard, otherwise they wouldn't be expending so much energy trying to oppose new construction), then it seems hopeless they'll ever accept it.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> YIMBY movements won't succeed until we convince poor renters that THEIR lives will also be better in a denser, more affordable city. A denser city may have more affordable rents per square foot of living space, but it is not obvious that it would be more affordable otherwise. Building taller buildings in SF will make living space cheaper, but as those fill up it's not going to make food, water, or other necessities more.locally abundant, it's not’s going to make transit or parking cheaper, etc.; without lots of money and time for infrastructure improvements, it's going to make all those things more expensive. And even if developers pay for all the costs directly, those costs are going to get passed on to buyers and, from the new landlords, to renters.

magduf 9y ago

>YIMBY movements won't succeed until we convince poor renters that THEIR lives will also be better in a denser, more affordable city. If that simple truth isn't immediately obvious to poor renters, then it seems like they're beyond hope.

joeblubaugh 9y ago
This is not how you get things done in a society - you can’t just say “they don’t agree with me already, they must be stupid”. You have to actually talk to them.
- magduf 9y ago
  That works with some stuff, but the example given was so plainly obvious that if a significant number people disbelieve it, it's really a lot like the inhabitants of 1600s Salem believing in witchcraft: they're just so mired in stupid thinking that I don't think you're going to convince them. It's very simple: you can only fit so many people into a given space depending on the housing type (e.g., single-family houses vs. high-rise condos), and the laws of supply and demand apply: if more people want to live in a place, the prices are going to go up, so the only way to mitigate that is to build denser housing. If demand is increasing, there simply is no way to keep housing affordable if everyone demands to hang onto less-efficient types of housing. This isn't a difficult concept. I realize this isn't quite as simple as "water is wet", but still, it's pretty easy and if people don't accept it after a 2-minute explanation (which I assume they've heard, otherwise they wouldn't be expending so much energy trying to oppose new construction), then it seems hopeless they'll ever accept it.

dragonwriter 9y ago

> YIMBY movements won't succeed until we convince poor renters that THEIR lives will also be better in a denser, more affordable city. A denser city may have more affordable rents per square foot of living space, but it is not obvious that it would be more affordable otherwise. Building taller buildings in SF will make living space cheaper, but as those fill up it's not going to make food, water, or other necessities more.locally abundant, it's not’s going to make transit or parking cheaper, etc.; without lots of money and time for infrastructure improvements, it's going to make all those things more expensive. And even if developers pay for all the costs directly, those costs are going to get passed on to buyers and, from the new landlords, to renters.