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Market rate isn't "what yummyfajitas thinks they should be paid", and it's not "what the 80 year old nuns down the street get paid". You'll find most charters

by jbooth 16y ago

Market rate isn't "what yummyfajitas thinks they should be paid", and it's not "what the 80 year old nuns down the street get paid". You'll find most charters pay higher than public schools for an equivalent amount of experience (public schools have a lot of 30 year veterans on the payroll, charters not so much). Anyways, if you're looking for talent, then market rate is the rate required to lure in talent from other industries. You can probably pay a little less because people like the idea of being a teacher, but it can't be egregiously less, which is what it is right now - what would I make as a first year or fifth year math teacher?

yummyfajitas 16y ago
$64k per calendar year in NYC, equivalent to a salary of $85k/year. (I'm not even touching the value of tenure and pensions.) http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-831014B39D1E/0/TeacherSalarySchedule20083.pdf http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-... That's not bad for a liberal arts grad 5 years out of college, even by NYC standards. Market rate is "how little can we pay them before we can't fill our open positions". I see no reason to believe we are anywhere near that point, Teach For America still rejects what, 2/3 of the people who apply?
- jbooth 16y ago
  $64k/year with 5 years experience. That's up from a base of 45k just starting out. So if I wanted to switch it up to be a math teacher, I'd be cutting my pay to 45k. After sweating it out for 5 years, I'd be up to 65k, still below what entry-level engineers can make in NYC. And that's in one of the 2 most expensive housing markets in the country. Regarding "How little can we possibly pay to keep a warm body in teh room" -- this is why modern conservatives should never be taken seriously on education. The idea of quality never even enters into your thinking? I'm not trying to be histrionic here, but why provide education at all if that's how you feel about it? EDIT: More on that link. The following quote implies we're both overestimating what a 5-year veteran gets: "NOTE: If you are eligible for the 5 years longevity, please add $1000 to your annual salary Example: Jane smith had completed 5 years of full-time work for the DOE. She is currently on step 6a with the Masters Differential. Her annual salary is $56,707. Her new salary code is 6V and her new annual salary is $57,707." That seems to imply 5 years with a master's that you got over those summers and went into debt for gets you to 57k. In New York City. What do I get in finance if I'm good at math, almost triple that?
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    You'd be cutting your pay to $45k ($60k annualized), working less, getting an extra couple months of vacation, and great pension benefits. I also forgot that for teaching 5 years, you've just earned a pension of 6% of your "Final Average Salary" (average of your last 3 years). So for teaching 5 years, you've just earned a pension of $2900/year (inflation adjusted) starting at age 55 (assuming the 5 year pay is $50,000, not sure I understand the table I posted). Assuming you live to be 80, that's worth another $15k per 9 months of work. So teachers total comp is $60k per 9 months, just starting out (equivalent to $80k/year). That's really not bad for entry level. http://thebronxislearning.blogspot.com/2008/10/nyc-teacher-pensions-straight-poop.html http://thebronxislearning.blogspot.com/2008/10/nyc-teacher-p... (You need Readability to view that page.) In finance, you are working far more hours than the teacher, and you can also be fired whenever you under perform. You also seem to be assuming that GS or JPM will give a job to just any idiot with a math degree. "How little can we possibly pay to keep a warm body in teh room" Not what I said at all. I said "fill our open positions" - in general, to fill a position, you must find qualified people. I'm a strong proponent of measuring performance, firing the warm bodies who don't perform, and offering rewards to those who perform well.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Well, the nickel-and-diming attitude seems to have a strong prejudice against qualified people, even if you say "least amount for a qualified person". Engineering departments managed with that philosophy tend to be filled with mediocre hacks. As far as teachers working less.. do you know any young teachers? We're both on Hacker News right now. Teachers have been at work since 7AM teaching in front of a classroom, and are currently doing grading and lesson planning. Regarding the pensions, I agree it's an area for reform, and a case in point of union dysfunction. But as long as people like you come across as borderline hostile to the idea of teachers being paid well for a job well done, they're going to close ranks behind the union, and I would too. EDIT: I don't care what some report says about hours in the aggregate, especially one that presumably intermingles running-out-the-clock 64yos with young teachers. I don't know how it was compiled but I'm sure I could find one saying the exact opposite if I cared to. I'm assuming you don't know many teachers, otherwise you would get what I'm saying here.

by jbooth 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

$64k per calendar year in NYC, equivalent to a salary of $85k/year. (I'm not even touching the value of tenure and pensions.) http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-831014B39D1E/0/TeacherSalarySchedule20083.pdf http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-... That's not bad for a liberal arts grad 5 years out of college, even by NYC standards. Market rate is "how little can we pay them before we can't fill our open positions". I see no reason to believe we are anywhere near that point, Teach For America still rejects what, 2/3 of the people who apply?

jbooth 16y ago
$64k/year with 5 years experience. That's up from a base of 45k just starting out. So if I wanted to switch it up to be a math teacher, I'd be cutting my pay to 45k. After sweating it out for 5 years, I'd be up to 65k, still below what entry-level engineers can make in NYC. And that's in one of the 2 most expensive housing markets in the country. Regarding "How little can we possibly pay to keep a warm body in teh room" -- this is why modern conservatives should never be taken seriously on education. The idea of quality never even enters into your thinking? I'm not trying to be histrionic here, but why provide education at all if that's how you feel about it? EDIT: More on that link. The following quote implies we're both overestimating what a 5-year veteran gets: "NOTE: If you are eligible for the 5 years longevity, please add $1000 to your annual salary Example: Jane smith had completed 5 years of full-time work for the DOE. She is currently on step 6a with the Masters Differential. Her annual salary is $56,707. Her new salary code is 6V and her new annual salary is $57,707." That seems to imply 5 years with a master's that you got over those summers and went into debt for gets you to 57k. In New York City. What do I get in finance if I'm good at math, almost triple that?
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  You'd be cutting your pay to $45k ($60k annualized), working less, getting an extra couple months of vacation, and great pension benefits. I also forgot that for teaching 5 years, you've just earned a pension of 6% of your "Final Average Salary" (average of your last 3 years). So for teaching 5 years, you've just earned a pension of $2900/year (inflation adjusted) starting at age 55 (assuming the 5 year pay is $50,000, not sure I understand the table I posted). Assuming you live to be 80, that's worth another $15k per 9 months of work. So teachers total comp is $60k per 9 months, just starting out (equivalent to $80k/year). That's really not bad for entry level. http://thebronxislearning.blogspot.com/2008/10/nyc-teacher-pensions-straight-poop.html http://thebronxislearning.blogspot.com/2008/10/nyc-teacher-p... (You need Readability to view that page.) In finance, you are working far more hours than the teacher, and you can also be fired whenever you under perform. You also seem to be assuming that GS or JPM will give a job to just any idiot with a math degree. "How little can we possibly pay to keep a warm body in teh room" Not what I said at all. I said "fill our open positions" - in general, to fill a position, you must find qualified people. I'm a strong proponent of measuring performance, firing the warm bodies who don't perform, and offering rewards to those who perform well.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Well, the nickel-and-diming attitude seems to have a strong prejudice against qualified people, even if you say "least amount for a qualified person". Engineering departments managed with that philosophy tend to be filled with mediocre hacks. As far as teachers working less.. do you know any young teachers? We're both on Hacker News right now. Teachers have been at work since 7AM teaching in front of a classroom, and are currently doing grading and lesson planning. Regarding the pensions, I agree it's an area for reform, and a case in point of union dysfunction. But as long as people like you come across as borderline hostile to the idea of teachers being paid well for a job well done, they're going to close ranks behind the union, and I would too. EDIT: I don't care what some report says about hours in the aggregate, especially one that presumably intermingles running-out-the-clock 64yos with young teachers. I don't know how it was compiled but I'm sure I could find one saying the exact opposite if I cared to. I'm assuming you don't know many teachers, otherwise you would get what I'm saying here.