7 ms·

'Transit-Oriented Teens'

102 points by mozumder 9y ago

ggm 9y ago
We could use them in Brisbane. State and city governments slogging it out over a metro (rubber tired trackless bendy buses) vs tunnel thing. Brisbane transport has been up in the air since Patrick Geddes day. It's a mess
Libturd 9y ago
this is not news.
zjaffee 9y ago
This group is awesome and for so many has sparked an interest in urban planning, transit and local politics. In many cases actually leading people to attend local council meetings, run for office, the list goes on.
- zjaffee 9y ago
  This also said, it should be noted that this group has inherent biases against the tech industry due to many aspects of gentrification that tech new money represents, and the lack of recognition among said new money for their role in gentrification.
  - closeparen 9y ago
    NUMTOTs idealizes city populations and social climates at the nadir of urban decay, and wishes that they could have all the infrastructure-investment trappings of contemporary global powerhouses without any of those pesky middle-class people ruining the culture and taking up space. It's the revolutionary-socialist working class squabbling with the salaried middle class while millionaire homeowners cheer them on and pocket the home-equity gains of a "we should only build what we can publicly finance" development policy. It holds that cities are great, but all actual examples of people internalizing this information and migrating towards urban lifestyles are crimes against humanity. It believes that people should not live in suburbs, but that development should be subject to as much local control as possible (maintaining a situation where most housing is in suburbs). These contradictions are held to be contradictions of capitalism itself, with a socialist revolution and a completely unspecified "make housing a human right" scheme as the only remedy. It's fascinating, enthralling, maddening. I was really into it for a while and burned out.
    - zjaffee 9y ago
      Except for the fact that the true middle class has already been displaced from city centers already, the current debate is between those who are/were working class and those who are upper middle class/upper class (but aren't necessarily the 1%). Where historically, this population had used their same political power that they are using now to gentrify neighborhoods to systematically deny access to the suburbs to people of color and lower income people forcing them in cities. To fight against community displacement because it's a current trend for rich people to want to live in city centers isn't a war on the middle class necessarily when it comes to the long term, because said trend could easily reverse again.
    - Itaxpica 9y ago
      It mostly just sounds like bog-standard leftbook with an urbanist skin.
      - closeparen 9y ago
        Yeah, with the caveat that moderators explictly say "this is not leftbook" and there's a fair amount of debate from the YIMBY side.
        zjaffee 9y ago
        Saying this isn't leftbook means that you won't be banned from the group for having opinions that aren't highly liberal.
    - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
      Are we talking about the same group? The NUMTOT I'm in is basically pure YIMBY.
  - thebradbain 9y ago
    Well, yes, since when you have a city (SF, in this case) zoned for ~60+% single family homes[1] and people with higher incomes are moving in to the area (by and large tech workers, in this case), something has to give: either the city needs to increase housing supply (by increasing density), or existing homes will go to those that can pay the most for them. Tech workers, for all the influence they have in the area, really have not advocated in any organized way to update zoning laws in the city proper (with the occasional exception of Google/Facebook/BigCo subsidized housing for their own employees that is eerily reminiscent of company towns). The bias is justified, imo. I'd consider myself a member of both NUMTOT and the tech industry, and trust me, I don't think I'm alone when I say most tech workers would also like to have cheaper rent. [1] http://sf-planning.org/zoning-map http://sf-planning.org/zoning-map (light yellow signifies single family dwelling)
    - joeblubaugh 9y ago
      Tech workers have organized around this, largely through YIMBY groups, which are starting to have some limited success with this. Unfortunately, a lot of the messaging from these groups are arrogant and troll-y rather than building an even broader constituency. They don’t have any patience, and they think their opponents are naive, often calling them “stupid”
      - zjaffee 9y ago
        I agree, the YIMBY movement may have good intentions, but so many of the people pushing these policy positions are far less educated than the counterparts who recognize the benefits of certain types of zoning as a central aspect of modern life.
        Buge 9y ago
        Are you saying that the failure of YIMBY to understand counterpoints are what is making disagreements between tech workers and TOT? I think it's the opposite. When YIMBY ignore counterpoints, that's a core point of agreement with TOT. Because TOT ignore counterpoints even harder.
        9y ago
  - IIAOPSW 9y ago
    I also find the group is just generally has a lot of "living college liberal caricature" types and can be on a hair trigger. There was one post with Bill Gates talking his usual vaccines and demography. 1 in 10 comments were to the effect of "Bill is just another rich white dude therefore he's evil". Really leaves a sour taste in ones mouth. I guess this is the "racism and emotional labor" the mods are fletching about.
  - ng12 9y ago
    > the lack of recognition among said new money for their role in gentrification This is where you jumped the shark. How does one "recognize their role" in gentrification? I know I'm probably a gentrifier, but I don't have much of a choice do I?
    - zjaffee 9y ago
      By not calling yourself middle class like many single tech workers making 200k a year in the bay area do. The upper middle class (really the top 30% of earners) have continued to see gains in income growth where the rest of the economies wage growth has largely stagnated.
      - astrange 9y ago
        200k/year tech workers can’t achieve home ownership and are therefore working class.
        lazyasciiart 9y ago
        That's not part of the definition of middle class for most stats you'll see - http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/index.html http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-clas...
        akhilcacharya 9y ago
        The only place $200k a year tech workers can’t afford a house is the SFBA. Literally everywhere else it’s doable with a commute (a shorter one than SFBA at least!)
        tropdrop 9y ago
        But the reason they're making $200k a year is because they're in SFBA... right out of college I briefly considered an offer to be an "administrative assistant" at Facebook - a job that normally nets you about $40K/year anywhere else. At Facebook it was $90K. My point is you can't easily land that same tech job somewhere else in the country and keep that inflated salary, too.
  - tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
    Can I use that as a quote in my city simulator?
  - rrcaptain 9y ago
    Also has to do with tech folk reinventing things that work perfectly fine such as buses, hyperloops, etc.
fenwick67 9y ago
I love NUMTOT and honestly it was one of the things that made it really hard to get off Facebook
- craftyguy 9y ago
  It's rather ironic that they wouldn't exist, or at least be nearly as popular, without the 'tech industry' that they lothe.
  - PascLeRasc 9y ago
    'We should improve society somewhat.'
    - closeparen 9y ago
      ... by eliminating the class of people who work on technology so that they no longer make money or contribute to demand for space. The criticism stands.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

102 points by mozumder 9y ago

ggm 9y ago

We could use them in Brisbane. State and city governments slogging it out over a metro (rubber tired trackless bendy buses) vs tunnel thing. Brisbane transport has been up in the air since Patrick Geddes day. It's a mess

Libturd 9y ago

this is not news.

zjaffee 9y ago

This group is awesome and for so many has sparked an interest in urban planning, transit and local politics. In many cases actually leading people to attend local council meetings, run for office, the list goes on.

zjaffee 9y ago
This also said, it should be noted that this group has inherent biases against the tech industry due to many aspects of gentrification that tech new money represents, and the lack of recognition among said new money for their role in gentrification.
- closeparen 9y ago
  NUMTOTs idealizes city populations and social climates at the nadir of urban decay, and wishes that they could have all the infrastructure-investment trappings of contemporary global powerhouses without any of those pesky middle-class people ruining the culture and taking up space. It's the revolutionary-socialist working class squabbling with the salaried middle class while millionaire homeowners cheer them on and pocket the home-equity gains of a "we should only build what we can publicly finance" development policy. It holds that cities are great, but all actual examples of people internalizing this information and migrating towards urban lifestyles are crimes against humanity. It believes that people should not live in suburbs, but that development should be subject to as much local control as possible (maintaining a situation where most housing is in suburbs). These contradictions are held to be contradictions of capitalism itself, with a socialist revolution and a completely unspecified "make housing a human right" scheme as the only remedy. It's fascinating, enthralling, maddening. I was really into it for a while and burned out.
  - zjaffee 9y ago
    Except for the fact that the true middle class has already been displaced from city centers already, the current debate is between those who are/were working class and those who are upper middle class/upper class (but aren't necessarily the 1%). Where historically, this population had used their same political power that they are using now to gentrify neighborhoods to systematically deny access to the suburbs to people of color and lower income people forcing them in cities. To fight against community displacement because it's a current trend for rich people to want to live in city centers isn't a war on the middle class necessarily when it comes to the long term, because said trend could easily reverse again.
  - Itaxpica 9y ago
    It mostly just sounds like bog-standard leftbook with an urbanist skin.
    - closeparen 9y ago
      Yeah, with the caveat that moderators explictly say "this is not leftbook" and there's a fair amount of debate from the YIMBY side.
      - zjaffee 9y ago
        Saying this isn't leftbook means that you won't be banned from the group for having opinions that aren't highly liberal.
  - eli_gottlieb 9y ago
    Are we talking about the same group? The NUMTOT I'm in is basically pure YIMBY.
- thebradbain 9y ago
  Well, yes, since when you have a city (SF, in this case) zoned for ~60+% single family homes[1] and people with higher incomes are moving in to the area (by and large tech workers, in this case), something has to give: either the city needs to increase housing supply (by increasing density), or existing homes will go to those that can pay the most for them. Tech workers, for all the influence they have in the area, really have not advocated in any organized way to update zoning laws in the city proper (with the occasional exception of Google/Facebook/BigCo subsidized housing for their own employees that is eerily reminiscent of company towns). The bias is justified, imo. I'd consider myself a member of both NUMTOT and the tech industry, and trust me, I don't think I'm alone when I say most tech workers would also like to have cheaper rent. [1] http://sf-planning.org/zoning-map http://sf-planning.org/zoning-map (light yellow signifies single family dwelling)
  - joeblubaugh 9y ago
    Tech workers have organized around this, largely through YIMBY groups, which are starting to have some limited success with this. Unfortunately, a lot of the messaging from these groups are arrogant and troll-y rather than building an even broader constituency. They don’t have any patience, and they think their opponents are naive, often calling them “stupid”
    - zjaffee 9y ago
      I agree, the YIMBY movement may have good intentions, but so many of the people pushing these policy positions are far less educated than the counterparts who recognize the benefits of certain types of zoning as a central aspect of modern life.
      - Buge 9y ago
        Are you saying that the failure of YIMBY to understand counterpoints are what is making disagreements between tech workers and TOT? I think it's the opposite. When YIMBY ignore counterpoints, that's a core point of agreement with TOT. Because TOT ignore counterpoints even harder.
      - 9y ago
- IIAOPSW 9y ago
  I also find the group is just generally has a lot of "living college liberal caricature" types and can be on a hair trigger. There was one post with Bill Gates talking his usual vaccines and demography. 1 in 10 comments were to the effect of "Bill is just another rich white dude therefore he's evil". Really leaves a sour taste in ones mouth. I guess this is the "racism and emotional labor" the mods are fletching about.
- ng12 9y ago
  > the lack of recognition among said new money for their role in gentrification This is where you jumped the shark. How does one "recognize their role" in gentrification? I know I'm probably a gentrifier, but I don't have much of a choice do I?
  - zjaffee 9y ago
    By not calling yourself middle class like many single tech workers making 200k a year in the bay area do. The upper middle class (really the top 30% of earners) have continued to see gains in income growth where the rest of the economies wage growth has largely stagnated.
    - astrange 9y ago
      200k/year tech workers can’t achieve home ownership and are therefore working class.
      - lazyasciiart 9y ago
        That's not part of the definition of middle class for most stats you'll see - http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-class-anyway/index.html http://money.cnn.com/infographic/economy/what-is-middle-clas...
      - akhilcacharya 9y ago
        The only place $200k a year tech workers can’t afford a house is the SFBA. Literally everywhere else it’s doable with a commute (a shorter one than SFBA at least!)
        tropdrop 9y ago
        But the reason they're making $200k a year is because they're in SFBA... right out of college I briefly considered an offer to be an "administrative assistant" at Facebook - a job that normally nets you about $40K/year anywhere else. At Facebook it was $90K. My point is you can't easily land that same tech job somewhere else in the country and keep that inflated salary, too.
- tytytytytytytyt 9y ago
  Can I use that as a quote in my city simulator?
- rrcaptain 9y ago
  Also has to do with tech folk reinventing things that work perfectly fine such as buses, hyperloops, etc.

fenwick67 9y ago

I love NUMTOT and honestly it was one of the things that made it really hard to get off Facebook

craftyguy 9y ago
It's rather ironic that they wouldn't exist, or at least be nearly as popular, without the 'tech industry' that they lothe.
- PascLeRasc 9y ago
  'We should improve society somewhat.'
  - closeparen 9y ago
    ... by eliminating the class of people who work on technology so that they no longer make money or contribute to demand for space. The criticism stands.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]