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The timing on this documentary is quite off. Though it’s worth mentioning how China has seemingly hustled the West particularly the U.S. on a bigger scale. They

The timing on this documentary is quite off. Though it’s worth mentioning how China has seemingly hustled the West particularly the U.S. on a bigger scale. They have not only usurped the already dwindling middle class but are in the process of destroying the education system wholesale. And I am not just talking about undergraduate and graduate schools. This is happening in K-12. US is effectively using tax dollars to educate millions of Chinese. The only benefit I see is the asset bubbles, namely the housing market, that will help the forthcoming demographic offset (baby boomer retirements).

mikeash 9y ago
Can you elaborate on how we’re using tax dollars to educate millions of Chinese?
- bitxbit 9y ago
  Over 350K Chinese students in the US every year which implies only three years of churn to reach one million. Increasingly more of these students are in K-12 and in public systems. But private institutions benefit from tax dollars and are often drivers of regional economies which then ties back to tax dollars. Moreover, the top schools across the country have limited seats for both international and domestic students. If these institutions then prefer and accept more Chinese international students who almost always end up paying full tuition instead of domestic students in need of financial aid then it is easy to make such an argument. Anecdotally, go to any nice neighborhoods with good schools and you will more than likely find a house with a single Chinese high school student living in it. I am not saying international (and Chinese) students do not add value to the education system here in the US but when there are so many of them flooding the market effectively pricing out well-deserving domestic students then we clearly have a problem.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    At the college level, they pay exorbitant tuition, so there’s no reasonable case that they’re getting taxpayer support. More like the other way around: international students paying enormous tuition subsidize other students. I know a lot of Chinese people in the US, in wealthy neighborhoods with excellent schools, and I’ve never even heard of high school students living alone in a house like you describe. I’m sure it’s been done, but I’m more than a little skeptical that it happens in any significant number.
    - bitxbit 9y ago
      On the surface, you are right, it appears international students help cross-subsidize domestic students and I would even concede that this is true when you look at the immediate impact ceteris paribus. However, I also think you have to consider the fact that NPV of college education even at full tuition is positive. And that NPV actually declines quite a bit as you move down the quality axis which comes back to my point of displacing domestic students who now face lower NPV and lower quality education. Supply is always limited. I understand it cuts both ways but the current dynamic is very much one sided in my view.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Supply isn’t particularly limited. Schools can expand, given enough money. International students pay more than enough. If international students disappeared, the result wouldn’t be all those spots filling with American students, it would be a bunch of spots disappearing due to lack of resources. Education is not fundamentally different from any other product here. When China gives Boeing a couple of billion dollars for some airliners, they’re not taking airliners away from Americans.
    - cannabisceo 9y ago
      I saw a bit of it in Orange County which has some of the best schools in CA. It was usually a two-fold scheme. You build a business hosting foreign students in a residential home and providing some ancillary services. They attend local public high school and struggle with English because of the language barrier.

mikeash 9y ago

Can you elaborate on how we’re using tax dollars to educate millions of Chinese?

bitxbit 9y ago
Over 350K Chinese students in the US every year which implies only three years of churn to reach one million. Increasingly more of these students are in K-12 and in public systems. But private institutions benefit from tax dollars and are often drivers of regional economies which then ties back to tax dollars. Moreover, the top schools across the country have limited seats for both international and domestic students. If these institutions then prefer and accept more Chinese international students who almost always end up paying full tuition instead of domestic students in need of financial aid then it is easy to make such an argument. Anecdotally, go to any nice neighborhoods with good schools and you will more than likely find a house with a single Chinese high school student living in it. I am not saying international (and Chinese) students do not add value to the education system here in the US but when there are so many of them flooding the market effectively pricing out well-deserving domestic students then we clearly have a problem.
- mikeash 9y ago
  At the college level, they pay exorbitant tuition, so there’s no reasonable case that they’re getting taxpayer support. More like the other way around: international students paying enormous tuition subsidize other students. I know a lot of Chinese people in the US, in wealthy neighborhoods with excellent schools, and I’ve never even heard of high school students living alone in a house like you describe. I’m sure it’s been done, but I’m more than a little skeptical that it happens in any significant number.
  - bitxbit 9y ago
    On the surface, you are right, it appears international students help cross-subsidize domestic students and I would even concede that this is true when you look at the immediate impact ceteris paribus. However, I also think you have to consider the fact that NPV of college education even at full tuition is positive. And that NPV actually declines quite a bit as you move down the quality axis which comes back to my point of displacing domestic students who now face lower NPV and lower quality education. Supply is always limited. I understand it cuts both ways but the current dynamic is very much one sided in my view.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Supply isn’t particularly limited. Schools can expand, given enough money. International students pay more than enough. If international students disappeared, the result wouldn’t be all those spots filling with American students, it would be a bunch of spots disappearing due to lack of resources. Education is not fundamentally different from any other product here. When China gives Boeing a couple of billion dollars for some airliners, they’re not taking airliners away from Americans.
  - cannabisceo 9y ago
    I saw a bit of it in Orange County which has some of the best schools in CA. It was usually a two-fold scheme. You build a business hosting foreign students in a residential home and providing some ancillary services. They attend local public high school and struggle with English because of the language barrier.