4 ms·

So many problems, and probably too much good press for the post-graduate qualifications and the system as a whole. My somewhat anecdotal recollection (from a g

So many problems, and probably too much good press for the post-graduate qualifications and the system as a whole. My somewhat anecdotal recollection (from a good university) was that most PhD students stayed on by default as a way to continue in education with the campus lifestyle - except inevitably in a diminished way. If it wasn't this then it was to fulfill some naive ambition about making their academic prowess have some direct impact on the world. So I think most of these problems are almost inevitable. A student goes from undergrad, where they are learning to close to the limit of human understanding in their subject at a break kneck pace, to perhaps (e.g. a physicist) spending 3 years studying what shape of foil best reflects microwaves in some particular manner. Socially most of their peers have moved on. Progress in science has been increasingly pushed beyond the reach of often otherwise brilliant individuals. They have a project of often dubious value which is a completely different challenge, and a completely different value proposition to what they were doing in undergrad. These problems are probably not well communicated, because everyone has a vested interest in continuing the lie. The PhDs generally don't want to admit failure and a poor life choice, the 'system' doesn't want to lose prestige/funding and the public want to maintain an unrealistic image about the practice and progress in the sciences. Most of the actors involved have essentially good intentions, yet it's leading to wasted talent and severe mental health problems.

internetman55 9y ago
Hmm, hopefully that stuff doesn't turn out that way for me. I'm going to school to learn how to do research in scientific computing. I want to get apprenticed to do a specific and competitive job, not prove that I'm smart or be an academic glutton or whatever else. I've had a real life job and I don't really care about all that extra stuff, I just want to do applied mathematics for a living. I'm probably one of the top applicants to my program so we will see what happens. I feel like I'll be content to enjoy office politics as well should I fail out and end up in another large corporate job, but that I'll be unable to focus if I don't give a serious shot at academic stuff.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  I just think 'academic stuff' has a danger of being too broad and nebulous a goal. Just don't do things for the wrong reasons, and recognize that the end of undergraduate studies is a big life change regardless of what you do. I'm quite far removed from it all anyway. It was just clear to me 15 years ago that there were problems then already. I would tend to believe that computing is going to suffer less as there has been more tangible progress in the field. Although I would add from an outsiders perspective, we do seem to get very little out of computing academia in my opinion. By this I mean usable new languages, libraries, hardware ... etc. I know this is not often the primary goal of research, but it feels like it should exist more substantially as a by product of all the activity in computing academia.
XorNot 9y ago
My experience was I absolutely didn't have anyone around me who was able to provide good, realistic advice about the achievability of a PhD for myself, or how to evaluate a lab and supervisors compatibility. (For context I was in chemistry for my research career) In my case this led to eventually realising after 5 years I should submit a masters, get the hell out, and now I'm making more money then my wife who did get her PhD as a Linux sysadmin (the fortune being that throughout that time I tried hard to stay abreast of IT and that skillset - guess a part of me was correctly suspicious).
rocqua 9y ago
Are you perhaps European? I recognize your sentiment of people doing a PhD to continue being a student, but it seems the majority of HN doesn't. This suggests, this kind of thing doesn't happen in the US. From what I know, a PhD in the US is rather different from one in the EU. Though things also differ between EU countries.
- lsd5you 9y ago
  Yeah, UK (Or should that be not sure). Seems to be the same result by a different mechanism? I'm not entirely sure what the alternative view is of how this situation has come about. Why are students willingly entering into this deal. Is it being missold? Shouldn't there be a lack of demand.
  - rocqua 9y ago
    From what I know, British PhDs are positions that pay a wage. Whereas in the US, you need to find your own funding. Thus, in the US there is more pressure on a PhD, because they need to take care of their pay.
    - tnecniv 9y ago
      In the US, your funding primarily comes from your PI. You may have to supplement it via TAing some semesters depending on your group's resources. Even if you are lucky enough to get something like an NSF GRFP, that wont fund your full five or more years as a student.
      - rocqua 9y ago
        Duration is another difference, 5 year PhDs are rare in Europe. The Netherlands mostly has 4 year programs, Germany mostly seems to have 3 years. At the same time, PhDs here require a MSc (2 years usually), which in turn requires a BSc (3 years usually). So in the end, total time from start to PhD doesn't differ too much.
    - joshvm 9y ago

internetman55 9y ago

Hmm, hopefully that stuff doesn't turn out that way for me. I'm going to school to learn how to do research in scientific computing. I want to get apprenticed to do a specific and competitive job, not prove that I'm smart or be an academic glutton or whatever else. I've had a real life job and I don't really care about all that extra stuff, I just want to do applied mathematics for a living. I'm probably one of the top applicants to my program so we will see what happens. I feel like I'll be content to enjoy office politics as well should I fail out and end up in another large corporate job, but that I'll be unable to focus if I don't give a serious shot at academic stuff.

lsd5you 9y ago
I just think 'academic stuff' has a danger of being too broad and nebulous a goal. Just don't do things for the wrong reasons, and recognize that the end of undergraduate studies is a big life change regardless of what you do. I'm quite far removed from it all anyway. It was just clear to me 15 years ago that there were problems then already. I would tend to believe that computing is going to suffer less as there has been more tangible progress in the field. Although I would add from an outsiders perspective, we do seem to get very little out of computing academia in my opinion. By this I mean usable new languages, libraries, hardware ... etc. I know this is not often the primary goal of research, but it feels like it should exist more substantially as a by product of all the activity in computing academia.

XorNot 9y ago

My experience was I absolutely didn't have anyone around me who was able to provide good, realistic advice about the achievability of a PhD for myself, or how to evaluate a lab and supervisors compatibility. (For context I was in chemistry for my research career) In my case this led to eventually realising after 5 years I should submit a masters, get the hell out, and now I'm making more money then my wife who did get her PhD as a Linux sysadmin (the fortune being that throughout that time I tried hard to stay abreast of IT and that skillset - guess a part of me was correctly suspicious).

rocqua 9y ago

Are you perhaps European? I recognize your sentiment of people doing a PhD to continue being a student, but it seems the majority of HN doesn't. This suggests, this kind of thing doesn't happen in the US. From what I know, a PhD in the US is rather different from one in the EU. Though things also differ between EU countries.

lsd5you 9y ago
Yeah, UK (Or should that be not sure). Seems to be the same result by a different mechanism? I'm not entirely sure what the alternative view is of how this situation has come about. Why are students willingly entering into this deal. Is it being missold? Shouldn't there be a lack of demand.
- rocqua 9y ago
  From what I know, British PhDs are positions that pay a wage. Whereas in the US, you need to find your own funding. Thus, in the US there is more pressure on a PhD, because they need to take care of their pay.
  - tnecniv 9y ago
    In the US, your funding primarily comes from your PI. You may have to supplement it via TAing some semesters depending on your group's resources. Even if you are lucky enough to get something like an NSF GRFP, that wont fund your full five or more years as a student.
    - rocqua 9y ago
      Duration is another difference, 5 year PhDs are rare in Europe. The Netherlands mostly has 4 year programs, Germany mostly seems to have 3 years. At the same time, PhDs here require a MSc (2 years usually), which in turn requires a BSc (3 years usually). So in the end, total time from start to PhD doesn't differ too much.
  - joshvm 9y ago